Just a question to hear ideas on price point of Manufacturers.

[Pa Jayhawk]

The other thread on the Ping Rapture got me thinking about this. I really liked the looks and more importantly the larger size of the 3w.

Although I would have a real problem with buying the club. Tour Edge did something similar to this with their new line of Exotics. Granted I hear nothing but good things about the performance of the club. But they took a club and almost doubled their price point of their existing line. To me, and I may likely be the minority in this and can live with that, this is bad for the consumer to buy the club. What are everyone elses thoughts on this??

Granted they are a business, but as the consumer are we not setting ourselves up for buying these clubs in raising the price bar for the future? I was extremely happy to get the new G2 with the Aldila shaft for under $300 when it was the hot thing on the market. 3-4 years ago, it likely would have costed $400+.

I see the Rapture line coming out at that price and can't help but think if I considered buying this club I would be setting myself up for hefty future expenses. I just see FW's running for $300-400 and can't help but ask if this company really came out with something so much better than their last line to justify doubling or even trippingly their costs.

This is in no way a shot at people who buy these products, but simply interested in others ideas. I have heard from everyone who have tried the Rapture Drivers and TEE fairway woods that they are worth the money. Although I have to ask how much better they are than their prior product, and where is the price point going to go from here if I jump on board?

I can't help but think it is kind of like spending $1000 for the Elmo doll at Christmas time. Is it really that much better than last years doll that went for $9.99. Now that it is established that people will pay that, it happens every year.

Edit 1 - It seems now that Callaway, Nike, and all the other Manufacturers are jumping on board with this since they know it will work. Heck, even Taylor Made is doing so, and you know for them the thing will likely be selling for $99 come Christmas time since they will likely have 3 other models out between now and then. So far, at least for me, this may be an advertisement for Manufacturers such as Cleveland. Assuming they don't follow suit. From what I have seen, it almost appears the Price Point may actually be going down slightly.

[warbirdlover]

I can only say this. I had a G5 I bought for $300 and really liked it.

I bought the Rapture and with tax was around $450.

Was it $150 better then the G5?

YES! It's a G5 on steroids. I'm sure the technology it takes to make this much difference (and there was) between the G5 and everything else I tryed last October) costs more to make. These prices are too high though. The G5 should be $200-250 and the Rapture should be $300-$350. But Ping isn't the only one on the high priced band wagon. Cally has the $500 FTi and the $430 FT5. Nike has the $400 SQ squared etc etc.

So I'm saying the Rapture should cost more then a G5 but all new drivers are overpriced.

[Rockford35]

I'll weigh in, but I NEVER buy anything new for this reason:

It's probably not going to be better than what's already in your bag.

I've bought my fair share of drivers in the day. But if I look back on things, the best value I ever had was a $125 purchase for my Callaway Warbird about 58 years ago. Well, maybe 12, but it seems like more. That club got me 14 of 16 fairways and 290+.

Then, I had to have a Hawkeye VFT Pro Series. HAD TO. Paid $150 for it as a demo, and it was mint.

GBBII? Sign me up. Grabbed on on E-bay for $110 the year after it was released.

Who said Launcher? Yep, grabbed TWO of those. Sold one, then the other, then got it back again. Then finally sold it again. But, I never paid close to what retail is on the RIGHT NOW.

So now I sit with a Tour HiBore and an FT-3 that I paid a combined $285, with their current shafts.

Am I hitting the ball any better? I doubt it. Am I buying into new technology? You better beleive it. Is the new Rapture/FT-i/FT-5/HiBoreXL Tour/Bridgestone gonna make me a better player? No chance.

I think it's more a case that these days, there is alot more of "keeping up with the Joneses". People want that shiny new slice machine, just like Fred next door does. "It's gotta be better."

And, today, there's alot more disposable income floating around. Have you seen the number of supercars and V8's bought in North America, even with the price of fuel continously rising? It's staggering. But the money is there. Callaway, TM, Titty, the works, they're all riding that. Groups like Tour Edge and Bridgestone are trying to appeal to the higher end of golfers who would regularily walk past their wares. The J33 line and the Exotics are head turners, and have stats to prove it.

"It's gotta be better".

I can tell you, without one word of a lie, they aren't. Yes, people find the Holy Grail of golf clubs from time to time (WBL), but I bet in 2 years, he's pining for something new as the shine has gone from his stick.

If you want to waste money, buy retail. If you want to keep up with the Joneses, go to town.

If you want to play better golf, then buy a set of clubs and learn to play with them on an intimate level. That's the best way to enjoy this game, not by being broke and not being able to go to the range.

Just my 2 cents.

R35


PS>>...WBL, I wasn't singling you out here, just using you as an example of an everyday Joe. No offense intended....

[ualtim]

I think that your always better off waiting for the price to fall off when the next model comes out. The high initial price point is what sent me over to the component club clubmaking world 12 years ago. The TEE Fairways are great clubs, but I am not going to even think about them until the price drops. As soon as the CB2's came out, they dropped the CB price by $100. Has the CB gotten $100 worse than last year? Nope. Ping is especially hard line on their prices which is one of the reasons will not buy their products from them. Rock has the system down right, wait until the next model comes out before you buy unless you can find an unbelievably good deal on a slightly used one on eBay or after Ezra hits it for a week.

[bames]

People, like myself, believe in a general rule of thumb - "You get what you pay for." I believe this even beyond money, you put in the time, and work hard in school, you get more out of it. You buy a Yukon, you get more than a buying an Amigo or something. But this quality gap begins to diminish in tight, highly technological markets, almost to the point of being non-existent. Every once in a while, maybe every 50 years, someone "reinvents the wheel" in golf. Otherwise the quality gap is very much perceived, not actual. So to answer your question, if I were to put out a "new and improved" line of clubs but charged last years price, what message would I be sending? The buying public would immediately assume that it is really not that improved, just new. And worse, if I was still lower than my competitor's pricing what would you think? Inferior product. So, in my opinion price pointing is a necessary marketing tool for those in the industry. Put yourself in their shoes. (Wouldn't that be nice!)

I generally don't purchase anything that is this year's model, unless I have done a tremendous amount of research, otherwise, I wait to notice trends. I'm just now buying a Titleist 904F 3-wood. I don't even know how long they have been out, but their popularity in the bag speaks more than their initial offering price.

[warbirdlover]

PS>>...WBL, I wasn't singling you out here, just using you as an example of an everyday Joe. No offense intended....

R35

But you do it so "frequently"!!!!

I disagree to some extent. I had a Yonex ADX 200 that I hit as well as anything until the Rapture. Always long and always in the fairway. I used it for years, up until three years ago when I bought a R580 to try a large head titanium driver instead of my graphite head Yonex. And (to my surprise) I hit it just as straight as the Yonex and longer. Then last summer I had to get on the Launcher bandwagon and all the other drivers I tried after my Launcher woes were much worse then the R580 and Yonex. October I got the Rapture, ONLY because it just smoked everything I've ever hit before in my life. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!

[Rockford35]

Originally Posted by warbirdlover

But you do it so "frequently"!!!!

I disagree to some extent. I had a Yonex ADX 200 that I hit as well as anything until the Rapture. Always long and always in the fairway. I used it for years, up until three years ago when I bought a R580 to try a large head titanium driver instead of my graphite head Yonex. And (to my surprise) I hit it just as straight as the Yonex and longer. Then last summer I had to get on the Launcher bandwagon and all the other drivers I tried after my Launcher woes were much worse then the R580 and Yonex. October I got the Rapture, ONLY because it just smoked everything I've ever hit before in my life. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!

Sure, but how well are your scores reflecting your change? Are you playing any better? My guess is no. You might be driving the ball "better", but your game is the same.

It's nice to find something that works, don't get me wrong. But clubs that create this type of havoc - drivers - aren't your bread and butter out on the course. Tiger is a perfect example of that.

R35

[warbirdlover]

Sure, but how well are your scores reflecting your change? Are you playing any better? My guess is no. You might be driving the ball "better", but your game is the same.

It's nice to find something that works, don't get me wrong. But clubs that create this type of havoc - drivers - aren't your bread and butter out on the course. Tiger is a perfect example of that.

R35

Scores are dropping every year. I used to shoot in the low 50's (9 holes) for years, then dropped into the 40's and now occassionally shoot in the high 30's. My scores are not staying the same.... This is probably not due to the driver change though as you said but just playing more.

[bames]

Originally Posted by warbirdlover

But you do it so "frequently"!!!!

I disagree to some extent. I had a Yonex ADX 200 that I hit as well as anything until the Rapture. Always long and always in the fairway. I used it for years, up until three years ago when I bought a R580 to try a large head titanium driver instead of my graphite head Yonex. And (to my surprise) I hit it just as straight as the Yonex and longer. Then last summer I had to get on the Launcher bandwagon and all the other drivers I tried after my Launcher woes were much worse then the R580 and Yonex. October I got the Rapture, ONLY because it just smoked everything I've ever hit before in my life. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!

I don't want to put the wrong words in your mouth so correct me if I'm wrong Rock, but I think, WBL, Rock was alluding to the fact that what you did is great, but somewhat of an anomaly. Especially when one takes into consideration that your results would not hold true for everyone, not even a majority. Just like I'm madly in love with my MP 60s, but I'm one of maybe 2 or 3 golfers on this forum who plays them. And they only made me a better golfer in a superficial sense by the fact that most of my better shots can be attributed to the confidence they added in my head. It could be that the Rapture does the same for you!

[warbirdlover]

I don't want to put the wrong words in your mouth so correct me if I'm wrong Rock, but I think, WBL, Rock was alluding to the fact that what you did is great, but somewhat of an anomaly. Especially when one takes into consideration that your results would not hold true for everyone, not even a majority. Just like I'm madly in love with my MP 60s, but I'm one of maybe 2 or 3 golfers on this forum who plays them. And they only made me a better golfer in a superficial sense by the fact that most of my better shots can be attributed to the confidence they added in my head. It could be that the Rapture does the same for you!

bames

I wouldn't disagree...

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by bames

So to answer your question, if I were to put out a "new and improved" line of clubs but charged last years price, what message would I be sending? The buying public would immediately assume that it is really not that improved, just new. And worse, if I was still lower than my competitor's pricing what would you think? Inferior product. So, in my opinion price pointing is a necessary marketing tool for those in the industry. Put yourself in their shoes. (Wouldn't that be nice!)

This is probably a big part of what made me pose the question. I have only been with the game for about 6 years. Initially that seemed to be the case. Then about 2-3 years ago, it at least seemed to me that the price point on drivers went from around $400 for the big name, down to $300.

Interesting that when I started I used Rock's principle on buying older and picked up a McHenry Metals that retailed for $429 for $115. A Firesole that started retailing at $399 for $129. Same with FW's, Adams original Tight Lies for around $75-100 dollars when they were still fairly big.

Then when I upgraded, I noticed the G2 was only $299 with the shaft I wanted. The fairway woods were $149. This was just after hitting the market, and so much cheaper in fact that it convinced me there was little reason to wait. It now appears to be going back the other way and I will likely go back in my "Last years Model" mode.

Again, I have only been at this for 6 years, and wasn't sure if this is the cyclical process on golf clubs. I would have assumed it would go with a steady upward shift, but now it more appears they are going in circles. I am actually not even in the market for anything with the exception to maybe MP60 irons, but in the same sense it would appear that you no longer see as many rebates on older irons as you did 5-6 years ago when I bought my first set. Granted this may be because of the fitting process, but in the case of MP60's they appear to play equal to my current set, and 1* upright to Ping specs. so I could likely even buy stock and adjust the lie less than 1* and regrip myself, although it is not likely they will be selling off anytime soon. Strange as well because they have been on the market for more than a year and have come out with other Cut Muscles in the 67, although with no perimeter weighting.


edit 1 - It is likely at this point, if I bought new FW's, they would more likely be the Original Tight Lies with stiff shafts for $29, and that is not because of price but because of comfort level.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by bames

Just like I'm madly in love with my MP 60s, but I'm one of maybe 2 or 3 golfers on this forum who plays them. And they only made me a better golfer in a superficial sense by the fact that most of my better shots can be attributed to the confidence they added in my head. It could be that the Rapture does the same for you!

Funny that you mentioned this while I was typing in regards to the same club in my last post, in response to yours


I didn't notice you played the MP60's

[bames]

Originally Posted by Pa Jayhawk

Funny that you mentioned this while I was typing in regards to the same club in my last post, in response to yours


I didn't notice you played the MP60's

They just fit my mind's eye of what an iron should be, that added comfort improved my confidence and I think relaxed my swing mechanics. This has produced better iron shots, I believe anyway. They are worth a swing if you have any thoughts of trying some out, do it. I was able to demo mine for $25 for about 5 days. This allowed me to play my favorite courses and get a feel for them outside of a range setting. I knew I was a done deal and now never even look at other irons. Better clubs? Debatable. Better for me? No doubt.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by bames

They just fit my mind's eye of what an iron should be, that added comfort improved my confidence and I think relaxed my swing mechanics. This has produced better iron shots, I believe anyway. They are worth a swing if you have any thoughts of trying some out, do it. I was able to demo mine for $25 for about 5 days. This allowed me to play my favorite courses and get a feel for them outside of a range setting. I knew I was a done deal and now never even look at other irons. Better clubs? Debatable. Better for me? No doubt.

I think it is past trying them out. I demoed them every time I would go into a store last year. I don't even do that anymore because I don't want to think about them. It is now just a matter of whether I want to pull the trigger. I would not even likely try any other clubs at this point.

A big part of wanting to change is how they fit my "Mind's eye". My i3+'s were that way when I got them, and now the offset is distracting and I even prefer less and less topline and sole width. Even though it is likely a swing issue, I can't help but think the offset is the cause anytime my draw goes to a hook, and the fact I can't fade the ball. Hence a confidence issue.

Looking back, I started out with Wilson Tour Cast irons that I picked up for around $200 unfitted, with little offset, small top, small sole. Probably more club than a beginner should use, but I was naive to golf, and after time I played them well. I can't help but think even though I was fitted to Pings, they match my game less and I took a step backwards in getting them. My game certainly did, and it took a couple years to recover. I imagine stepping into the MP60's would take little work. Just a matter of when I get tired of holding the trigger. My birthday is the end of this month and at this point I could be starting the season with them if I am not completely comfortable with the Pings when I step on the course.

[ualtim]

I like the MP-60's as well, but they are still out of my value price range even used on eBay. They need to come down a bit before I even consider it. Nice irons, though. I know VT plays them and it was his review that gave me the inspiration to try them.