Cast vs. Forged

[Hangfire]

I own a set of Mizuno MX-23 irons that are forged, are these really any better than say a cast set of irons? Can you really "feel" the difference between the two or could this be a load of marketing hype?

[twofast2s]

not many people can feel the difference b/w the two, from a study done by a golf magazine i read few month back.

however, i went from casting to forged and i think the difference was there, but only slight. so it could be just my imagination.

forged irons are easier to bend, so you can adj. lies and lofts. as far as being better.. i think it's more of a preference

[mr3856a]

I must be one of those people, then, because I can absolutely, 100% tell the difference. If you think about the molecules being in a jar, a cast club would be like a jar full of marbles. There's a lot of space between each molecule, and therefore energy doesn't get transferred as easily.

In a cast club, it's like a jar of sand - the molecules are very tightly spaced, and energy gets transferred very easily, which means you can feel slight variations in where the ball makes contact with the face because the energy is transferred easier from the clubhead, up the shaft and to your hands.

Your clubs might have slightly less feel even though they're forged because they are cavity backs. But go grab yourself a Big Bertha iron and compare the two - you'll be able to feel the difference, no question.

To me a cast club feels like a forged club - with a towel wrapped around the clubhead.

[RickinMA]

forged irons also take more of a beating in your bag - cast irons are usually a bit harder and resist bag chatter a bit better

that said, catching a forged club just right and puring a shot is a sweet feeling - great shots on cast clubs are nice too, but I think if you play enough, you can appreciate a bit of a difference

[warbirdlover]

There is no difference between the two if the same steel is used. (Molecules closer together?). The cast might have some very fine porosity but is doubtful since the casting processes are so much better now. Forged are just "cast" ingots heated to very high temperatures and hammered into shape. This makes them a little stronger (assuming same material) then cast because they are cold worked and they have flow lines (ferrite/pearlite) conforming to the shape. BUT, since most cast irons are stainless they are harder and stronger then the plain carbon steels used in forged irons. Forged irons are softer (more ductile) then cast (easier to bend) but if you can feel the difference you're better then most. Forged won't last as long because of the softer, lower strength steels used. They'll ding up and wear faster then cast stainless irons. The ball wouldn't know the difference either.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Just to save typing from a prior thread

Originally Posted by Pa Jayhawk

I personally have never played Forged irons, but just cast Irons so I couldn't tell you the difference in "feel", but I have run accross information in the past indicating the the "feel" difference between Cast and Forged irons is considered to be one of the biggest Myths in golf

--------------------------

According to Frank Thomas, "If the design of the clubhead is the same, there should be no substantial difference in performance."

--------------------------

Based on research done by Bob McClure and the USGA. I personally don't know enough about Bob McClure to consider him a credible source, but others may.
"There is no difference in the feel between forged and cast irons"
---------------------------

So a Forged club could likely "Feel" better, although it is unlikely you are looking at identical club design to really compare, so who's to say it is not due to the club design.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by warbirdlover

There is no difference between the two if the same steel is used. (Molecules closer together?).

Yes, the molecules are closer together in a softer metal. Castings use a harder metal than forgings, as you correctly point out:

Originally Posted by warbirdlover

BUT, since most cast irons are stainless they are harder and stronger then the plain carbon steels used in forged irons. Forged irons are softer (more ductile) then cast (easier to bend) but if you can feel the difference you're better then most.

I would think anyone could feel the difference between the two. I hit a cast iron the other day for the first time since I bought my 32's, and it felt like a wooden baseball bat hitting a ball - no feel whatsoever, just a dull "thud", and off went the ball. You could hit it off the toe, heel, skull it, you name it - they all felt the same.

I think the "cast is much better nowadays" theory came about from OEM's trying to justify selling you an $800+ set of cast irons.

Originally Posted by warbirdlover

Forged won't last as long because of the softer, lower strength steels used. They'll ding up and wear faster then cast stainless irons. The ball wouldn't know the difference either.

They will ding up faster, very true - it depends on how you play as well. If you walk, you'll see much less bag clatter. If you ride carts all the time they'll be banging around back there, and that will take it's toll on them. If you hit a small rock under your ball, however, be prepared to be pissed...

Anyway, I think there's a humongous difference between the two.

[warbirdlover]

So a Forged club could likely "Feel" better, although it is unlikely you are looking at identical club design to really compare, so who's to say it is not due to the club design.

Pa Jayhawk

There you go!!

Yes, the molecules are closer together in a softer metal

mr3856a

Forget talking about molecules. In metallurgy you are talking on the atomic level. You would be talking about atomic crystalline structure if it mattered but one would NOT be closer together then another. All steels have pretty much the same density. The difference is in the "microstructure". One (forged) would be mostly ferrite (pure iron) with a small amount of pearlite (A mixture of ferrite and cementite). The other (cast) would be more pearlitic. Try hitting some "cast" Cleveland irons made from ductile iron (graphite nodules in the microstructure) if you want to feel soft. I'm the corporate metallurgist for a transmission company. Don't argue with me.

[JEFF4i]

It's like a dorky duel of knowledge between Warbird and mr3. Go Warbird(Sorry, I gotta support him, we're like brothers)

Honestly, it's difficult. I've hit some cast irons, namely the new pings and cobra inertia series, that felt great. I've also hit some cast irons, some titleist and taylormade, that you could tell the difference. I prefer my forged MP-33s, I can feel the difference and I love them anyway.

As far as getting dinged up, nah. Just take care of them, always clean them once you are done, and get club covers. Beyond that, don't throw your clubs either, not only is it distasteful, but if you do it with a forged and it hits a rock...

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by warbirdlover

Forget talking about molecules. In metallurgy you are talking on the atomic level. You would be talking about atomic crystalline structure if it mattered but one would NOT be closer together then another. All steels have pretty much the same density. The difference is in the "microstructure". One (forged) would be mostly ferrite (pure iron) with a small amount of pearlite (A mixture of ferrite and cementite). The other (cast) would be more pearlitic. Try hitting some "cast" Cleveland irons made from ductile iron (graphite nodules in the microstructure) if you want to feel soft. I'm the corporate metallurgist for a transmission company. Don't argue with me.

Is making a transmission like making a golf club?

Essentially you're agreeing with me that one is softer than the other, which is true. I can't give you an anatomical or metallurgical reason as to why perhaps, but was I right? Yes.

Furthermore, why don't they regularly cast soft metals? Why don't they forge hard metals?

Hmmm, maybe it's not all as similar as you say.

Anyhow, the proof is in the pudding. Ask anyone who plays forged irons if the feel of a cast iron is even remotely close. My guess would be if you had most people who regularly play cast clubs to hit a forged one, they would tell you the feel is awful - they don't regularly hit the sweet spot.

To a good ballstriker, the difference between forged and cast is night and day. Performance of the two is a whole other issue as well, but I won't get into that.

[ualtim]

To me. there is definitely a feel difference. Some of the newer castings in softer steel such as 304 steel are bridging the gap. GS's new P2 line claims that they have a 431-1 steel that feels even softer.

Performance wise, its hard to judge as most companies only produce a particular style of club head in either forged or cast. You can not compare a single clubhead created in both cast and forged. To me, the Mizuno MP-60's are like buttah! While I do not think that they would feel and perform the same if they were cast, there is no way to find out as they are all grain flow forged.

My current set is cast out of the softer 304 steel, and they definitely feel softer than some of my 431 steel offerings but not as soft as the MP-60's or even my vintage Wilson FG-17's. Its kind of like the Scotty Cameron debate; to me, Scotties feel better than cast putters but some do not feel or detect a difference. If you can not feel a difference, is it worth the added expense?

Cast clubs have their advantages, though. It is not easy to create some of the modern club head designs through the forging process nor is it as cost effective as casting the same design. Like all decisions on club purchases, its going to to come down to what the end user decides is important and how much it costs. Unless, of course, your just a ST Ho who is going to try and buy all of them.

[warbirdlover]

Is making a transmission like making a golf club?

Essentially you're agreeing with me that one is softer than the other, which is true. I can't give you an anatomical or metallurgical reason as to why perhaps, but was I right? Yes.

Furthermore, why don't they regularly cast soft metals? Why don't they forge hard metals?

Hmmm, maybe it's not all as similar as you say.

Anyhow, the proof is in the pudding. Ask anyone who plays forged irons if the feel of a cast iron is even remotely close. My guess would be if you had most people who regularly play cast clubs to hit a forged one, they would tell you the feel is awful - they don't regularly hit the sweet spot.

To a good ballstriker, the difference between forged and cast is night and day. Performance of the two is a whole other issue as well, but I won't get into that.

mr3856a

Same metals are used in transmissions as golf clubs (irons)

They do regularly cast soft metals and they forge harder metals

All the Ping and Cleveland players on tour play cast clubs.

Cast or forge is not the issue. Club design is.

Your Cleveland wedges are cast out of soft 8620 steel

Everyone has their preference between the two. I get all the "feel" I need out of my Pings.

[JEFF4i]

I will say, being a huge fan of i3s and long time liker of Ping irons, they do feel great.

Having Pings is like going to a prostitute. You lose your integrity but it still feels good.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by JEFF4i

Just take care of them, always clean them once you are done, and get club covers.

Iron head covers?

[JEFF4i]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Iron head covers?

Definately! Take care of your equipment and it will take care of you.