V grooves

[Sandpiper3]

I was looking at my J33s and was looking at the grooves, and noticed they look as though they are v grooves and not u grooves... So does that mean they'll be legal after 09? Will they theorhetically spin less?

Are they actually V grooves? Or are my eyes just playing tricks on me?

[warbirdlover]

I wouldn't be surprised if companies aren't starting to put those in now.

[Sandpiper3]

Yea, like i was looking at the grooves and it looks like theres a line in the middle of the groove, so i looked closer and it really looks like a V goove?

I can see how some companies would starting doing that right away, makes sense. I bet Callaway doesnt.

[RickinMA]

i'd be pretty surprised if anyone was selling v-grooves right now - more spin on U grooves and selling u grooves today means they'll sell you a new set w/ V-grooves when the rule kicks in $$$

also, it's not so much about the shape of the bottom of the groove -its draft angle that's important (i think) - how steep the angle from the flat face

[Sandpiper3]

It really is a V groove Rick, I tried taking a pic, but my camera isnt THAT good.

It goes straight down into it as a V... And yea, if I was any of them, id hold off, give ppl more spin now, then cash in...

Like im 100% these are V grooves, its really that easy to tell they go straight down into a V and you can see the line where they meet...

[warbirdlover]

I can see a u-groove helping a pro but I used to use the v-grooves years ago and the later irons with u-grooves haven't made me much better!!

[dave.]

Grooves only impart more spin from the rough or really wet longer grass,not the fairway and most amateurs will not hit a wedge hard enough from rough anyway to notice

[ManchesterGolfer]

Have I missed something on the rules? I heard they were thinking of putting limits on the grooves but never heard anything official?

[Sandpiper3]

They are planning to restrict grooves to V grooves in 2009 I believe on irons/wedges.

[Eracer]

Originally Posted by dave.

Grooves only impart more spin from the rough or really wet longer grass,not the fairway...

Why is this true? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Sandy]

Originally Posted by Eracer

Why is this true? Inquiring minds want to know.

I read a couple of articles that talked about this and why the broad-brush approach the golf authorities were taking would have little effect on average golfers. Basically the difference between U and V grooves when there was perfect ball on clubface contact (i.e. from the fairway or short grass) there was very little difference between the too, as the shallower grooves were still deep enough to give good spin. In the rough or in wet grass the deeper U grooves proved more efficient in clearing the debris away from the ball and therefore gave a slightly cleaner contact with the ball, so gave more spin from those conditions.

The research basically showed that unless you're using a premium ball, have a high swing speed with the club and make good contact with the ball then average golfers would barely notice a difference.

[ezra76]

Originally Posted by dave.

Grooves only impart more spin from the rough or really wet longer grass,not the fairway and most amateurs will not hit a wedge hard enough from rough anyway to notice

I hit the green with a SW from 120+ out the rough last week and yesterday a GW from 140. I don't know about the grooves but the SW made a difference IMO. I wouldn't have held that green with a 9 or PW. The GW was just stupidity, I had it in my hands and decided to see if I could shut it down and drive it hard enough to get it there.

I'm sure we'll hear plenty more about this in the next year and a half. I kind of doubt they are going to just "obsolete" all the clubs made in the last 10years. That's a little ridiculous to me.

[warbirdlover]

It was done to thwart the "bomb and gouge" pros. They just bomb it down somewhere and the u-grooves let them hit good shots out of the rough that should have penalized them.

[Bignose]

Originally Posted by Eracer

Why is this true? Inquiring minds want to know.

A big reason grooves become important from the rough is because grooves channel moisture away from the clubface-ball impact area. Not just the moisture on the grass itself, but the moisture in the grass. More moisture channeled away, as can be accomplished by larger grooves, means better clubface-ball impact, means better spin.

Another shot where grooves play an important function is on non-full shots from any lie including the fairway. It doesn't matter on full shots -- this has been known for quite a while. Cochran and Stobbs in their book Search for the Perfect Swing measured spin on shots from the fairway with a normal 5 iron and a groove-less 5 iron, and full shots has no significant different. Same result on full shots with a normal pitching wedge and a grooveless pitching wedge from the fairway. On full shots, it isn't the grooves imparting the spin, but the obliqueness of the impact. However, on less-than-full shots, like half-wedges and chips, the coefficient of friction is a larger factor in determining how much spin a shot has. The grooves enter into play here; though, in this case it is more about how sharp the edges of the grooves are rather than how big they are.

In summary, grooves are really only important when moisture gets between the club and ball (the rough) and on less than full-speed shots.

Now, for a question of my own, has anyone tried Wishon's micro-groove wedges? Tom Wishon Golf Technology His idea is to have more grooves, closer together, but not as deep, so that more scorelines are in contact with the ball. His website says it is USGA conforming. I'm just curious if anyone has tried them and seen real results from it?

[warbirdlover]

I don't know how Wishon can do that. USGA has guidelines on how close the grooves can be unless that calculation uses a formula based on the groove "width". Then he might be okay.