Iron Shopping, and Questions

[David Hillman]

I'm currently playing a roughly six-year-old set of oversize cavity backs made by Triumph, and even normally though I hit them well, I've decided to replace them. They are getting worn, and a little ugly, and the shafts are too soft ( regular graphites ).

So, I went and hit a bunch of candidates at a little store over the weekend. I learned some things, but some things didn't add up, which is were you guys come in. According to the simulator, my 6i swing speed averages 83 mph, and my tempo is 4/5ths of second, launch angle was never under 25*. I hit several Bridgestone J36s, because that was high on my list. I hit the CB with Project X 5.5 and 6.0 shafts, and blades with; 2* upright, and standards with both Project X 6.0, and 6.5. Also hit Ping S58 ( 1* flat, 2* up ), Cleveland Tour, Titleist ZM ( Rifle 5.5 ) and 695 MB, Mizuno MP37 and MP57.

I liked the J36 blades the best, followed by the Cleveland and the Mizunos. I didn't see much difference between the J36 CBs and the blades, to be honest. My misses were similar with each, although that said, I'm skeptical of this simulator. Well, I'm skeptical of all simulators, but this one was showing me hitting mostly draws with every club... and I hit a fade. The guys said they had not tweaked it to overstate right-to-left movement, but if I wanted to sell clubs, that's what I'd do.

Anyway, on to questions. I switched back and forth, and hit a lot of balls with the J36 blades with the two different Rifle shafts ( 6 and 6.5 ). I thought the 6 was going to be too stiff, and in fact, I had them put the 5.5 in the first Titleist, instead of a 6. Everything was identical with the two J36s, except the 6.5 consistently went about 3-4y further. As far as I know, 83 mph shouldn't be enough to load a shaft that stiff. Assuming this isn't just "simulator noise", why would that happen?

My biggest complaint with the J36s is that the lowest iron is just a 3, no 1 or 2 available. I could keep playing the 1 and 2 I have, but they don't match ( different brands, different shafts ), and I'm trying to simplify things. I would love to find a 1-9 iron set, but am not holding my breath. Then I thought about how lofts have changed over time, and wondered if my 18-year-old 1 iron is actually that much different from a new 3? Has anyone actually measured loft-creep over time? It seems likely they are similar, but then, how do I hit my 1 235y?

[xamilo]

You could keep playing your 1I? Can you actually hit one of those things?

[David Hillman]

I'm one of those people who just doesn't get it... I've never had too much trouble hitting my 1 or 2 irons. I don't hit the 1 nearly as often as I used to, since I got a driver, but I used to hit it 12-15 times per round back when it was the longest club I carried.

Hitting 2 irons a couple months back.

[Augster]

18 year old 1-iron? I'm pretty sure it'll be the same loft as your modern-day 3iron. About 21* I'm betting.

83MPH for a 6-iron swing isn't exactly slow. With a tempo that fast, less than a second, you need at least stiff, if not extra stiff because the shaft doesn't have time to rebound. MORESO if you have a short swing, i.e. rarely getting to parallel.

The only reason anyone can hit long irons is because they have a high enough swing speed to get them airborne. For slower swing-speed players, having the CG further back (Hybrids, fairway woods) helps them get the ball well up in the air at a slower swing speed but same loft.

The "shrinking loft disease" as it is called isn't just myth, it's fact. This is the reason why every set needs a "gap wedge". There used to not be any gap there when PW's were 52* instead of the "standard" 48*. And those are going down further.

The reason newer sets don't make the 2 and 1 iron anymore is that for the vast majority of the public they are unhittable. Most folks have learned that hybrids are better for you above the 5 or 6 iron. If not just to get it well up in the air, but they are better out of the rough and they are more forgiving.

It sounds like you want someone to talk you into the blades. I will.

If you hit ANY iron off the middle of the face, they will go the same distance if they are the same loft. Cavity-back or not. When you mishit a blade, you will lose more distance than if you mishit a cavity back.

Once you play the blades for a while, you will know how much it drops off and plan accordingly on your approaches.

And you will have a PRETTY set of sticks. That certainly counts more than the 1 or maybe 2 shots that CB's MIGHT save you in a round. No guarantees that they'd save you any shots at all.

[Eracer]

18 year old 1-iron? I'm pretty sure it'll be the same loft as your modern-day 3iron. About 21* I'm betting.

83MPH for a 6-iron swing isn't exactly slow. With a tempo that fast, less than a second, you need at least stiff, if not extra stiff because the shaft doesn't have time to rebound. MORESO if you have a short swing, i.e. rarely getting to parallel.

The only reason anyone can hit long irons is because they have a high enough swing speed to get them airborne. For slower swing-speed players, having the CG further back (Hybrids, fairway woods) helps them get the ball well up in the air at a slower swing speed but same loft.

The "shrinking loft disease" as it is called isn't just myth, it's fact. This is the reason why every set needs a "gap wedge". There used to not be any gap there when PW's were 52* instead of the "standard" 48*. And those are going down further.

The reason newer sets don't make the 2 and 1 iron anymore is that for the vast majority of the public they are unhittable. Most folks have learned that hybrids are better for you above the 5 or 6 iron. If not just to get it well up in the air, but they are better out of the rough and they are more forgiving.

It sounds like you want someone to talk you into the blades. I will.

If you hit ANY iron off the middle of the face, they will go the same distance if they are the same loft. Cavity-back or not. When you mishit a blade, you will lose more distance than if you mishit a cavity back.

Once you play the blades for a while, you will know how much it drops off and plan accordingly on your approaches.

And you will have a PRETTY set of sticks. That certainly counts more than the 1 or maybe 2 shots that CB's MIGHT save you in a round. No guarantees that they'd save you any shots at all.

What Augster said.

[David Hillman]

18 year old 1-iron? I'm pretty sure it'll be the same loft as your modern-day 3iron. About 21* I'm betting.

It turns out that Google knows everything!

Loft & Distance Tables

According to the graph on that page, loft creep is a little over-rated, especially at the low end. A degree at most until you get above a 3 iron, which is basically the same as the variation between clubs anyway.

It sounds like you want someone to talk you into the blades. I will.

That's not my goal, but go ahead anyway. I may need to be talked into something before I succumb to paralysis by analysis.

If you hit ANY iron off the middle of the face, they will go the same distance if they are the same loft. Cavity-back or not. When you mishit a blade, you will lose more distance than if you mishit a cavity back.

I was honestly surprised that that didn't seem to be the case with the clubs I hit on Sunday. When I mis-hit the blades, they went 150 just like the CB mis-hits, and were no further off-line.

And you will have a PRETTY set of sticks. That certainly counts more than the 1 or maybe 2 shots that CB's MIGHT save you in a round. No guarantees that they'd save you any shots at all.

I hate to admit it, because I like to think I'm a function over form guy ( look at my swing ) but there are few clubs I have flat ruled-out because they are just too ugly. Nothing with plastic inserts is getting into my bag.

Thanks.

[David Hillman]

Yet more loft-creep data...

The Evolution of Iron Lofts
1970s Avg. Today's Avg.
Iron Loft Iron Loft
1-iron 17 1-iron 15
2-iron 20 2-iron 18
3-iron 24 3-iron 21
4-iron 28 4-iron 24
5-iron 32 5-iron 27
6-iron 36 6-iron 30
7-iron 40 7-iron 34
8-iron 44 8-iron 38
9-iron 48 9-iron 42
PW 52 PW 46
Gap W 50
SW 56 SW 55
PGA.com :: Wishon on Technology: Making Sense of Hybrid Clubs

My 2 iron is 18* according to the manufacturer. I guess the 1 is probably about 16*.

[SiberianDVM]

So get the set you want that only goes to a 3i, then get 16° & 19° hybrids to fill the 1 and 2i slots. If it's good enough for Vijay................

[xamilo]

I find a 1 or 2 iron to be kind of useless. If you i a 4 iron 200yds, and a 3W about 230, I think you might find room for a hybrid or maybe a 5w (I use none), but that would be about all.

[David Hillman]

I'm studying this for the first time...

I lined up my 2 iron and 1 iron side-by-side today, and there's only about a whisker of difference in loft. That said, the 2 has always been a full club shorter, for whatever reason.

Also, I just got back from playing 18 holes, and I tracked every shot ( which I usually try to do, but get distracted ). On a 6700 yard track, I shot an 82 ( best I've done there, but this is only about my third time on this course ) hitting the following...

35 putts
12 drivers
1 3w off a tee, 4 off the deck
13 wedges
1 3i into a par 3
3 5i
4 6i
3 7i
3 8i
1 9i
and
1 1i off a tee, just to see if I can still hit it, since it's been awhile

And the amazing part is, I'm hitting my new driver really straight, but really short. I hit 12 fairways but was always between 210 and 240 off the tee. Even with those short drives, I was usually hitting a mid or short iron into par 4. 3 of the 3 woods were second shots on par 5s, just one was into a par 4 after a particularly short drive on a long hole.

Right now, I'm hitting both of my new woods so short that I don't have a gap to fill, but I may have to replace them with irons to get more distance! The 3i went 210 ( into a 185y hole, leaving a 75 footer for birdie ;( ) That's as long as my new Wishon 3 wood is going, and nearly as long as many drives I'm hitting. I wish I knew why. Both of the woods go straight as an arrow, and look and sound great... but they stop awful quick.

I originally started playing the 1 and 2 irons because I struggled hitting woods straight. Now that I'm doing that, they are somewhat redundant. I can see ditching one or the other, but probably not both... and there's nothing else I 'need' a spot in the bag for anyway. Maybe that two-way chipper I have in the garage, in case I get stymied by a tree.

[millrivermem]

ok here is what one company i've seen claims...and it seems to remain somewhat true with the thread entitled "your favorite club" or something to that extent....now they claim that the biggest mistake manufacturers make is making shaft lengths shorter with each club...they claim that every club should be the same length and jus different loft applied to them...they do this by custom fitting you in a way that finds your most powerful club....being that every person swing different and everyone has a certain club that they love because of the length...so they make all your clubs that "desired" length and u have at er.....i have never seen them personally....but you remind me very much of their marketing scheme

[SiberianDVM]

Maybe that two-way chipper I have in the garage, in case I get stymied by a tree.

I believe that club is illegal for tournament play and posting a handicap score. If you have a spare slot to fill, why not just get yourself a lefty 5 or 7 iron and be legal?

[LyleG]

I believe that club is illegal for tournament play and posting a handicap score. If you have a spare slot to fill, why not just get yourself a lefty 5 or 7 iron and be legal?

All clubs need to be the same hand, with the exception of the putter which can be either or both.

[SiberianDVM]

All clubs need to be the same hand, with the exception of the putter which can be either or both.

Really? I did not know that, obviously. I thought I read somewhere about a pro playing a set with the odd numbers rightly and the even numbers lefty.............

Oh well, what I said........never mind!

[David Hillman]

All clubs need to be the same hand, with the exception of the putter which can be either or both.

Okay that may take the cake as the dumbest golf rule. It's one thing to have rules preventing people from an unfair advantage, but what is this rule for? I mentioned in another thread that I played with a young guy a couple months ago who hit his woods left-handed and his irons righty. That's crazy, no doubt, but why on Earth should it be illegal?

That said, I have no real desire to carry that two-way chipper anyway, it's hard to use... although if it is illegal, I may just bag it to spite whoever wrote that dumb rule Out of curiosity, what's the legal definition of a 'putter'? Is there a maximum loft? That's the only way to prevent someone from calling a ~10* loft "chipper" a putter and bagging it under the exception you mentioned.