question for club builders

[kvasant]

About a month ago I bought a nike SQ driver clone (Sv2) fitted with a
harrison striper titanium shaft. This was a fantastic feeling club.
It was so much fun to hit and I could just rip at it knowing it was
going long and straight. Then one day on a heel hit the head
cracked. I've never had any problem with clone clubs in the past so
this incident seems anomalous and nothing to discourage me from
clones, but I digress...

I received a free replacement head from the place where I bought the
club and had it reassembled with the old harrison shaft at a local pro
shop. Here is where my question(s) comes in, now with this club,
presumably it should be the exact same thing, and behave the same way
right? But it's all I can do to NOT hit a hard fade with it now.
With the old one that cracked if I made any mistakes they were
slightly left, never right, although with my past drivers and other
woods my more natural tendency was to have a slight fade. What could
be happening here with this club?

Here are the things I'm considering:
1) my swing has freaked out, it's not the club.
- I really don't think this is it. I still have my old Ignite clone
and still hit it with the same controlled fade I always have had with
it. Plus, none of the compensation adjustments (grip, swing plane, alignment, etc..) I know to work with my
swing prevent the slice with this replacement Sv2. There is nothing I
can do to stop the fade/slice. With the original head I had to make a
very deliberate effort to get any fade at all. I'm reasonably
confident it's not my swing.

2) the club head is somehow different and flawed.
- I've got nothing to lead me to believe this, it looks just the same,
but could there be a variance from head to head that would produce
such different results?

3) the guy who assembled it did something wrong.
- I don't know much about club assembly, it looks pretty straight
forward. But is there anything that one might do wrong which could
cause the club to perform like this?

4) is the ferrule to blame?
- this may be grasping... but I did notice right away that the ferrule
used by the local proshop guy was longer than the original. The
original was 1/2" as it appears to be on all my clubs. The one this
guy used is 3/4". Is it possible that the extra length somehow
interferes with the flex and/or kick of the shaft? This shaft is
touted as being "fast recovering" to reduce lag. 1/4" doesn't seem
like much, but could it be an issue?

I'm both perplexed and disappointed, because I assumed that I'd have
my great feeling club back, but I can't even put this in the bag the
way I'm hitting it now. If anyone has anny ideas for cause and/or
solution I am all ears.

[Slingblade61]

This is one reason that people on this board stay far away from clones.

You have no way of knowing what you are getting and as you are finding out, they are genearally just cheap junk.

toss the club in the trash then go out and get a Cleveland Launcher.

Report back when you have made the switch.

[kvasant]

Well as I said, I've been using clones for a long time and never had any problems. I read reports about driver faces caving in or heads cracking with name brand clubs too. It happens. The original Sv2 I had was the best feeling driver I had ever hit, hardly a piece of junk.

If you have anything to say actually addressing my questions please do.

[Slingblade61]

I don't know how you can possibly say this,

Then one day on a heel hit the head
cracked

and then follow with this,

The original Sv2 I had was the best feeling driver I had ever hit, hardly a piece of junk.

You asked for an opinion and I gave it to you, I'm sorry you didn't want to hear it. Perhaps you should just tell me what you do want to hear and I'll repeat it for you.

If you could provide a link to the club in question maybe we can determine whether it's a quality knock off or something made of the floor sweepings from the Taylor Made factory.

[kvasant]

I am able to say it was the best feeling club I had ever hit because I stood over every drive totally confident that I could rip it down the middle. It also produced a beautiful ball flight which was a joy to watch. The fact that the club failed doesn't diminish any of the previous results. And to repeat, I've read plenty of reviews of name brand clubs where the reviewer said the club head failed (broke) in one way or another. This single incedent is nothing to base any sweeping conclusions on.

google Sv2 and you will find plenty of links to the club if you are really curious.

What I asked was for not editorial opinions on the merits of clone clubs. I asked 2 specific questions regarding 2 specific issues af assembly and whether they can influence club behavior. If you know anything about club building please share your insight, otherwise, why did you bother to say anything?

[Slingblade61]

Because I own the place.

Listen, scroll up to the top and find the search box and put in clones or clone clubs and see what comes up. I am sure that your particular head will not be found but there is alot of content on the subject and maybe your particular situation has been addressed in the past.

It's impossible to tell over the internet whether the fault is in your set up, swing or whatever but I suspect that it is not.

[Rockford35]

I have to side with Sling here, to a degree.

The fact that you have had no problems with clones in the past is pretty much a hail mary. Or, you just haven't had an opportunity to compare between other clubs out there and your ignorance is blinding the truth. Now, that's not me calling you ignorant as a shot, just a product of your situation.

The problem with clones is answered within your problems - consistency. If you take 10 OEM drivers, 9 of 10 will feel the same playing with the same setup. However, with a clone, you're looking at more like 5 or 6 out of 10. Your original head probably felt great because it had a nice think face that gave great distance and feel. This last one probably has a thicker face that gives you that dead feeling and blocks shots out to the right.

Go get another head from the place that you bought your original and I bet it feels different from the other two.

I, for one, hate clones. They suck. I played for years with a set of Ping clones and thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. I then had an opportunity to play with the same set that my set cloned and realized how foolish and wrong I was. These clones that I "loved" were merely half of what the potentially could and should have been.

I have not played with a clone that plays better than an OEM, and that's a fact. However, I know there are many guys out there that have played clones and love them. But again, I bring back the fact that ignorance brings into this argument. Yes, you can find that diamond in the rough, but i'd rather not have that diamond crack on me.

If you're talking component manufacturers, that's a whole other ball of wax.

As for assembly, assuming you are using the exact shaft, it has to be the head. There's really no reason otherwise. The ferrule does nothing other that asthetics. And if your swing is sound, you've pretty much eliminated everything except the fact that you a) have a defective clone head which you broke and b) got another clone head which you have already questioned as "defective".

My advice? Go out and test drive a bunch of drivers and buy an OEM driver and be done with it.

As much as one can protest that clones are "just as good" or "cheaper versions of OEM", the fact remains that there are many, many failures in clone clubs that absolutely dwarf that of OEM.


R35

[kvasant]

thanks for the thoughts R35. You may be right about the inconsistencies of clones. Still, prior to this episode I've been happy, and this isn't likely to sway me. I really like my irons and my wedges and for that matter my fairway woods which are all clones too. I also *have* compared all my clubs to their real deal counterparts and haven't found any substantial descrepancies. I'm just not prepared to spend >$1000 to outfit my bag. I still use the $5 no-name putter I got at the used equipment store and average about 30putts. I posted my querry about this club elswhere too and a couple of builders seemed to agree that it's likey due to variances in the club head more than anything else. I may just buy another one and see what happens. I'll still be spending less than if I bought the nike.

[Rockford35]

True, and good points.

However, if you bought the Nike, I doubt you'd be having these same problems. Heads do cave, but when they do, they are replaced by either a new head of the same or the newer version. At least most manufacturers do that.

Good luck with your driver. Clones or no clones, just enjoy the game of golf!:miz:

R35

[VtDivot]

Nice to see Sling shed the admin cloak and tell us how he feels. It just so happens that I agree 100%.

Anyone who's been around knows that Sling played the Snake Eye's and likes them, so it's not like he's just an OEM guy. Me on the other hand...

[ualtim]

I would have to agree with Sling and Rock and say that it has to be the head. If nothing else changes (ferrule excluded as its a trim piece for the most part) it has to be the head. I am a die hard component guy, but I avoid the clones as you just don't know what kind of quality that your going to get. There may be some good ones, but chance are if they are cloning a name brand club, some corners have been cut. Cloners are operating by stealing the image and marketing of name brand clubs without putting the investment into their own product. While they may claim to be made in the same foundries as the OEM's, just like most other products there are different levels of production quality out of the same facility. Are the molds the same? Are the quality of the materials the same? Is it even the same material as the club being cloned?

You can still get some top quality components with the latest technology from some of the companies the specalize in them such as Tom Wishon Golf, Golfworks (CS is suspect however), and Golfsmith and still save a pile of cash (but do not expect much resale value.) These companies spend a lot of R&D money on their designs as well as oversee production in the Chinese foundries with a high level of quality control. They are a good alternative to buying OEM without sacraficing quality.

If clones are your thing, go ahead and have at it and enjoy them. I hope you find some good stuff.

[ezra76]

http://www.valuegolfclubs.com/Driver...quatch-735.htm

Here's an idea. Considering you can buy 3 of these for less than 1 real Sasquatch, buy 3. Try all 3 out and return the 2 worst. If they all suck, return them all and get 3 more.

[bposton]

Thought I'd put my 2 cents in on this since I'm a club builder and as such I build clubs that are "similar" to OEMs. You can call them "clones" if you want to, but what I build are not "knockoffs" of brand names, and I'm not trying to market them as "the same as" X brand, but "comparable to" X brand. I've not had a customer yet that hasn't enjoyed what they received.
Having said all that, my first guess would be the club head also. That's because that particular "brand" of head is not nessecarily the best in the world. I tend to stick with excellent quality club heads from manufacturers such as Acer and PowerPlay.
Could have been the re-shafting; the head extraction could have damaged the integrity of the shaft - but not likely. Could have been the re-shafting was done differently that the original - again not likely but there are a lot of possible variables here.
You could buy another club - made by the original guy and with the same head and brand of shaft and see if this one is the same as the first. I would discuss it him. He should offer a return policy and it wouldn't take you long to figure out if it's the club head or your swing.
Again, just my 2 cents

[Esher]

Having said all that, my first guess would be the club head also. That's because that particular "brand" of head is not nessecarily the best in the world. I tend to stick with excellent quality club heads from manufacturers such as Acer and PowerPlay.

Just out of curiousity, if you don't have a lot of confidence in that particular head why do you sell it on your website? I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just curious.

[ualtim]

You can call them "clones" if you want to, but what I build are not "knockoffs" of brand names, and I'm not trying to market them as "the same as" X brand, but "comparable to" X brand.

By saying they are comparable or similar to "X" brand, are you not trying to cash in on the marketing of "X" brand? If the club in question was good enough on its own design merits why does it have to be similar or comparable to a highly marketed product?