PW question

[emc]

I've been having this argument in my head for a while now, so maybe you ST'ers could give your opinions. Is the pitching wedge really a wedge nowadays? With lofts for PW going down to 44*, an old 8 iron, isn't a PW an iron? Also, the PW is made more like an iron as part of the iron set than an extra wedge like the 60* etc.

On the other hand, you can post something along the lines 'Shut up EMC, it says wedge on the sole!'

What do we think?

[dave.]

yes,nowadays its 10 iron.20 years ago they were 50 degrees

[Rockford35]

Loft creep is common over the years with today's clubs. Your PW is basically a 1968 8 iron.

R35

[Eracer]

I've been having this argument in my head for a while now, so maybe you ST'ers could give your opinions. Is the pitching wedge really a wedge nowadays? With lofts for PW going down to 44*, an old 8 iron, isn't a PW an iron? Also, the PW is made more like an iron as part of the iron set than an extra wedge like the 60* etc.

On the other hand, you can post something along the lines 'Shut up EMC, it says wedge on the sole!'

What do we think?

I don't know the answer to that. But I think that one has to compare the distance and trajectory of "old clubs" vs. "new clubs". I think that yesterday's 8-iron hit the ball on the same trajectory as today's 8-iron, but the developments in shaft technology and clubhead design make today's lower lofts produce more distance with that trajectory. So a PW of today produces a higher trajectory, and the same distance profile, as yesterday's 8-iron, with yesterday's 8-iron loft.

[FKA19]

Loft creep is common over the years with today's clubs. Your PW is basically a 1968 8 iron.

R35

his is 48* (mp32) haha that was an example he made.
just nit-pickin to piss ya off lol

[emc]

his is 48* (mp32) haha that was an example he made.
just nit-pickin to piss ya off lol

47* actually lol. Nitpick properly! I used 44* as an example as that's the lowest PW loft I've heard of. In a way, my 50* is a 70's PW. This also explains why long irons are harder to hit. A 3 iron now is like a 2 iron of yesteryear.

[chemboy2]

47* actually lol. Nitpick properly! I used 44* as an example as that's the lowest PW loft I've heard of. In a way, my 50* is a 70's PW. This also explains why long irons are harder to hit. A 3 iron now is like a 2 iron of yesteryear.

These comparisons get tricky because the strongest lofted clubs tend to also be the most forgiving models.

Take the TM RAC CGB's for example, they have strong lofts even by today's stronger lofted standards. The CGB 3 iron may be the same loft as yesteryear's 2, or even 1, iron but it is MUCH MUCH more forgiving.

I know my PW is 46* and I carry a 50* GW because of it. I'm currently shopping for a new PW and the models I'm looking at put the loft a degree or two weaker but they are also not as forgiving as my MX-20s.

[ezra76]

Mine is 47* but thin soled with an 8bounce. I try to utilize it as a wedge. I chipped in with it this afternoon and used it out of a bunker, got out and on the green. I also have a 52* and will be adding a 56* with a higher bounce for sand and rough.

[limpalong]

On the other hand, you can post something along the lines 'Shut up EMC, it says wedge on the sole!'

What do we think?

Okay, shut up EMC, if it has a P or a W on the sole... it's a wedge, for cryin' out loud!!!! LOL (You told us to say it!!!)

Everything was hunky dory until the release of the King Cobra irons in the mid-90's. Traditional lofts had been fairly well maintained. DeLaCruz, Cobra's cheif designer was also an astute marketer. There was a booming interest in the game and people were buying clubs like never before. More and more people were watching golf on television. The 'newbies' could get perimeter weighting from Ping, Titleist DTR's, etc. What could set Cobra apart and give them an edge? First the lofts were jacked up about 4 degrees strong. Wow! Now I can hit an 8-iron as far as the pros do on TV!! Folks gained distance with the jacked up lofts. Secondly, the King Cobra's were 2 degrees upright from the traditional lie angles. Again, the 'newbies' who might have trouble leaving shots to the right, were drawing... or even hooking... irons. They loved it!!!!

Manufacturers, today, can't make up their minds. We see PW's from 44 degrees to 49 degrees... all over the map. What has that done? First, irons are sold, typically, in sets from 3-PW. If I have a 44 degree PW and a 56 degree SW, the gap is too great. Hardly any of those manufacturers who build jacked up lofted irons do not sell gap wedges to match. Now, you need to buy another iron. You'll drop the 3-iron and inset a GW... but, they've made another sale. Just the last few years would find any manufacturer, other than Ping, who would sell you a 4-GW... or some similar derivative of the "standard" set.

And, if you think lofts are screwed up... look at the lie angles. Pull up Mizuno's site and write down the lie angles of a set of Mizzy irons. Next, pull up Callaway's site and compare the lie angles. Woops!! Anywhere from 1.5 to 3 degrees of difference in lie angles between STANDARD lies. Confused yet??

A little sashay into history is the Zing 2 wedge option that Karsten had out there. You could choose from 2 different PW's, 3 different SW's, and a LW. Wow! Now I could tailor the wedge steps to suit my game! But, that idea did not catch on because bulk of players are not anal retentive like I am when it comes to having to know exact loft and lie differentials. (I said "me"... not including any others that might frequent these boards.)

If the club in your hand says PW, it IS a pitching wedge... as pitching wedge is defined by that specific manufacturer. The loft of that paticular club might be a 9-iron in another manufacturer's set. The basic premise is to do exactly what you are doing! Know the lofts of your clubs and the steps between clubs. Know that you have a set that is totally progressive and will allow you to keep reasonably similar distance gaps from club to club.

Off-topic, slightly, but your "is a wedge a wedge" leads to a similar issue in the business. The King Cobra had "Oversize" stamped in the cavity. Taylor Made brought out an iron about the same time that was labeled "Midsize". Holding the irons up side by side, the TM was slightly larger, club to club, than the Cobras. But, DeLaCruz's marketing strategies trumped TM's because everyone thought the oversize HAD to be larger... and more forgiving. There is no black and white textbook when it comes to terminology... and lofts... of golf clubs.

[emc]

Okay, shut up EMC, if it has a P or a W on the sole... it's a wedge, for cryin' out loud!!!! LOL (You told us to say it!!!)

Everything was hunky dory until the release of the King Cobra irons in the mid-90's. Traditional lofts had been fairly well maintained. DeLaCruz, Cobra's cheif designer was also an astute marketer. There was a booming interest in the game and people were buying clubs like never before. More and more people were watching golf on television. The 'newbies' could get perimeter weighting from Ping, Titleist DTR's, etc. What could set Cobra apart and give them an edge? First the lofts were jacked up about 4 degrees strong. Wow! Now I can hit an 8-iron as far as the pros do on TV!! Folks gained distance with the jacked up lofts. Secondly, the King Cobra's were 2 degrees upright from the traditional lie angles. Again, the 'newbies' who might have trouble leaving shots to the right, were drawing... or even hooking... irons. They loved it!!!!

Manufacturers, today, can't make up their minds. We see PW's from 44 degrees to 49 degrees... all over the map. What has that done? First, irons are sold, typically, in sets from 3-PW. If I have a 44 degree PW and a 56 degree SW, the gap is too great. Hardly any of those manufacturers who build jacked up lofted irons do not sell gap wedges to match. Now, you need to buy another iron. You'll drop the 3-iron and inset a GW... but, they've made another sale. Just the last few years would find any manufacturer, other than Ping, who would sell you a 4-GW... or some similar derivative of the "standard" set.

And, if you think lofts are screwed up... look at the lie angles. Pull up Mizuno's site and write down the lie angles of a set of Mizzy irons. Next, pull up Callaway's site and compare the lie angles. Woops!! Anywhere from 1.5 to 3 degrees of difference in lie angles between STANDARD lies. Confused yet??

A little sashay into history is the Zing 2 wedge option that Karsten had out there. You could choose from 2 different PW's, 3 different SW's, and a LW. Wow! Now I could tailor the wedge steps to suit my game! But, that idea did not catch on because bulk of players are not anal retentive like I am when it comes to having to know exact loft and lie differentials. (I said "me"... not including any others that might frequent these boards.)

If the club in your hand says PW, it IS a pitching wedge... as pitching wedge is defined by that specific manufacturer. The loft of that paticular club might be a 9-iron in another manufacturer's set. The basic premise is to do exactly what you are doing! Know the lofts of your clubs and the steps between clubs. Know that you have a set that is totally progressive and will allow you to keep reasonably similar distance gaps from club to club.

Off-topic, slightly, but your "is a wedge a wedge" leads to a similar issue in the business. The King Cobra had "Oversize" stamped in the cavity. Taylor Made brought out an iron about the same time that was labeled "Midsize". Holding the irons up side by side, the TM was slightly larger, club to club, than the Cobras. But, DeLaCruz's marketing strategies trumped TM's because everyone thought the oversize HAD to be larger... and more forgiving. There is no black and white textbook when it comes to terminology... and lofts... of golf clubs.

Now I'm confused

[gwlee7]

Just try to remember that the clubs are only numbered on the bottom so you can tell them apart from one another. I just pick the one I can hit a given distance and send the ball to the flag.

[dave.]

You can add to Limps list the fact they started to make irons shorter.So you now have cavity back clubs with less spin so they go farther,with stronger lofts and shorter shafts for added control.

is it any wonder everyone stopped playing blades

[emc]

You can add to Limps list the fact they started to make irons shorter.So you now have cavity back clubs with less spin so they go farther,with stronger lofts and shorter shafts for added control.

is it any wonder everyone stopped playing blades

I thought they made them longer for more distance?

[Pa Jayhawk]

This is something I thought of in just the last few weeks. I likely play my PW, which comes in at 47.2*, more as a wedge than I do an iron. Because I am in the market for a new set of wedges, I am seriously tossing around the idea of matching my PW with my wedges and not my irons. This may end up being a determining factor on the model wedge I buy. I still haven't hit the Mizuno's, but see on the specs on their site they list a PW with no loft spec in the wedge section. Cleveland goes to 46*. I also see alot of companies do not offer them in their wedge sets. So I tend to believe alot of companies would in fact consider them an iron.

Then again, I have seen on the course in the past people carrying a Callaway, Macgregor, and I believe Spalding 10 iron. So maybe that would be an option EMC

I further believe the Mac was a 54* model but I may be wrong.

[ualtim]

Limpalong's post pretty much nailed the reason why the lofts changed. Marketing. If you have had a chance to peruse Wishon's book he also has good explanation of vanishing loft disease.

Quite frankly, if your playing a PW that came with a set of irons you are playing a 9-iron (or even an 8-iron if you have one at 44*) of 20+ years ago. When Harvey Penick lent his name and influence on a series of club heads for Golfsmith (Wishon designs, by the way), the pitching wedges actually had a "10" on the bottom rather than a "PW" as he beleived that the modern PW was no more than a 10 iron. I am only aware of one major manufacturing company (well, two, since limpalong said Ping does the same) that offers 4-GW instead of 3-PW sets and that is Callaway. Major club manufacturers have found ways to get you to buy at least one club, if not 2 clubs in the 3-PW standard set that most of us probably do not need. This is one of the reasons I started building my own clubs over 10 years ago. I build the clubs I need (well, OK, who really needs 4-5 sets of irons? I am a component Ho, leave me alone ) in my set rather than buy clubs in a set that I will never use.

For my game, my club that has "PW" on the sole is my club for 115-120 yard shots. I do tend to use my "PW" on more partial shots than my other irons depending on how much run I am looking for on the green compared to my 52* GW, but I will also use my 7 and 8 irons in the same manner just not as often. My true go to wedge is my 52* GW. Unless I am looking for more or less roll out on the green, I will stick with my GW.