"Connected" swings

[Stanters]

Found some nice slow-mo vids on youtube at The Open - interesting and useful viewing I think.

Thought I'd bung a couple on as there has been a bit of talk about staying connected in your swing recently and these demonstrate that well I think.

One of the players of the year - tee to green perhaps the best, Ross Fisher. Not hard to see why he is so consistent. Look how tight he keeps his right elbow to his body throughout, it just looks so repeatable.



Compare it to the right elbow of Jaquelin here. To me it is never going to be as consistent as Fisher



And finally another great swing, similar to Fisher but with a Major under his belt. Geoff Ogilvy at Augusta. Another tight right elbow and repeatble action.

[SilverUberXeno]

I don't like Geoff's swing much at all. What a hack =D

Ross' is certainly the best of the three there, IMO. Almost looks a bit more inside than I'd expect someone that consistently to swing. Maybe he was trying to hit a draw.

Raphael picks the club up outside the line at the takeaway, for sure. But based on how the ball takes off there, he was likely TRYING to hit a fade.

Really seems like Ross fans his hands open away from the ball very early. But I've never understood why people frown upon this anyway.

Ogilvy's hands are SO close to his body. Compact swing taken to the extreme.

[Esox]

I tried to find a good video of Stricker's swing, but couldn't. The videos I found are from 2007. When I think of connected Stricker is really connected.

My daughter's coach is trying to teach her to stay connected. One plane, straight left arm and wrist, big shoulder turn. It's not easy for a twelve year old girl. She's struggling. I watched a lot of girls play this summer at her tournaments. Even the best players, more experienced girls that shoot much lower scores than she does, wave the club all over the place at the top. If she can get this down it would be unbelievable.

Kevin

[Manavs]

dating all the way back harvey penick, ive never understood peoples/instructors fascination with the bending aspects of the right elbow. i think that swing thought is so detrimental to the masses.

i mean isnt that the effect of the effort to extend the elbow? a baseball pitcher isnt trying to bend his elbow when he throws, he's trying to straighten it!

just my $0.02

[charnockpro]

I don't profess to know much about baseball pitchers, but the right arm bending and extending are vital to create speed for him, this is what causes the snap through his release.

Fisher gets it inside and shut at the top and steep on the way down and looks crowded through impact, this was what caused him trouble at Turnberry with a potential two way miss.

Jacquelin has a lovely pace to his swing, and if you notice his right arm is integral to dropping the club into a lower plane on the way down, i suspect he is working against an old problem of an inside takeaway by keeping the hands in and club out and then a re route on the way down.

All three are very timing/hands reliant and use the smaller muscles i think if you want to talk connected this is the swing to watch:

[Stanters]

Good points CP - I'm in no way as knowledgeable as you about the swings - I just thought that Ogilvy and Fisher's swings demonstrated what a connected swing looked like and Jaquelin's less so as a comparison.

I'm not everyone is really sure what people mean when they talk about a swing being connected so thought these would be good examples.

Like your analysis as ever - and agree about Mr Mahan - his swing is a beauty.

[Manavs]

Originally Posted by charnockpro

I don't profess to know much about baseball pitchers, but the right arm bending and extending are vital to create speed for him, this is what causes the snap through his release.

my point was only that the extension of throwing or hitting creates the bending of the right arm on the downswing. yes im calling out the "late hit" angle as not the cause point of the late hit angle. the harder you extend, the more the arm bends on the downswing, and that thinking about delaying the angle or keeping the right arm connected on the downswing - from my experience - does more harm than good.

the downswing takes roughly .08 seconds. the first .06 takes you to the late hit and the last .02 is the extension. there is a lot of timing needed to attempt to do both parts. instead if you attempt to just extend your right arm all of that will happen naturally.

Originally Posted by charnockpro

Fisher gets it inside and shut at the top and steep on the way down and looks crowded through impact, this was what caused him trouble at Turnberry with a potential two way miss.

This is also what caused him to get into contention - Fisher didnt magically change his swing during the open, therefore its safe to say that the swing, or knowledge of the swing, is not to blame. IMO what got to him was being in contention for the claret jug - a mental issue that caused a chemical shift in the body (ie adrenaline hormonal shift) that caused his body/muscles to not respond the way he wanted it to.

he was still trying to do what he knew to be his swing, but the added rush of the open threw everything out of kilter. fun game isnt it.

[charnockpro]

my point was only that the extension of throwing or hitting creates the bending of the right arm on the downswing. yes im calling out the "late hit" angle as not the cause point of the late hit angle. the harder you extend, the more the arm bends on the downswing, and that thinking about delaying the angle or keeping the right arm connected on the downswing - from my experience - does more harm than good.

The two quotes are totally at odds,either that or your syntax is causing me to not understand, extending causes bending? if you watch Mahan there is no manipulation of right arm extension, his swing flows by being dragged along by his big muscles with no manipulation or independent hand and arm action, there should never be the thought of holding a late hit angle as there is little or no possibility of manipulating something extended from the end of your hands travelling att the speed a club head does approaching impact, there is more of a chance of slowing the clubhead progress, you never keep the right arm connected, If you make the correct downswing movements your right arm will naturally flow to correct positions.

the downswing takes roughly .08 seconds. the first .06 takes you to the late hit and the last .02 is the extension. there is a lot of timing needed to attempt to do both parts. instead if you attempt to just extend your right arm all of that will happen naturally.

I would think that concious extending of the right arm would cause you to dump the load of your club early and have little or no transfer of energy into the ball


This is also what caused him to get into contention - Fisher didnt magically change his swing during the open, therefore its safe to say that the swing, or knowledge of the swing, is not to blame. IMO what got to him was being in contention for the claret jug - a mental issue that caused a chemical shift in the body (ie adrenaline hormonal shift) that caused his body/muscles to not respond the way he wanted it to.

he was still trying to do what he knew to be his swing, but the added rush of the open threw everything out of kilter. fun game isnt it.

Ross Fisher has noted in the September issue of Golf World magazine in the UK that his prevelant problem is the move over the top causing him a two way miss, I did not make this quote lightly as it is something i have observed and also by reading his article know that it is something Ross and his coach are both working on to cause less misses both ways, if you studied Ross Fisher his swing problems have reared their heads in numerous tournaments where he was either in contention or just in the middle of the pack.

[Manavs]

allright no problem charnockpro, let me try to explain myself a little more thoroughly regarding the "extending causes bending" concept.

because we are dealing with what is in essence 2 levers and a fulcrum (arms and club, wrists being the fulcrum). when you attempt to extend your right arm from the top of the backswing, the weight of the clubhead against the fulcrum is so heavy that the wrists will cock before they unload. but it is the attempt to extend that creates this cocking/bending of the wrists. going back a few posts to my throwing of a ball analogy. a pitcher's motion is a similar level action just a shorter second lever (fingers vs club) trying to throw a ball in slow motion shows the pressure against the elbow hence why the elbow bends.

remember those tempomasters whippy irons? the harder you tried to extend your right arm the more the shaft would bend.

[Manavs]

all i am saying is that this is a sport of extension, the action one must do on a downswing is to extend to hit the ball, by doing that you will look like you are creating a late hit angle/right elbow connected etc look.

the downswing takes roughly .08 seconds. the first .06 takes you to the late hit and the last .02 is the extension. there is a lot of timing needed to attempt to do both parts. instead if you attempt to just extend your right arm all of that will happen naturally.

I would think that concious extending of the right arm would cause you to dump the load of your club early and have little or no transfer of energy into the ball


YES it would if you are consciously trying to extend the right arm in the wrong direction - ie casting. if you cast it behind the ball you will definitely dump it too soon, but if you extend it (think golfing machine line of compression) - at and thru the ball - which from the top of the backswing would be:

1-down
2-out
3-and slightly forward

you would strike the ball perfectly with no manipulation of the face.

This is also what caused him to get into contention - Fisher didnt magically change his swing during the open, therefore its safe to say that the swing, or knowledge of the swing, is not to blame. IMO what got to him was being in contention for the claret jug - a mental issue that caused a chemical shift in the body (ie adrenaline hormonal shift) that caused his body/muscles to not respond the way he wanted it to.

he was still trying to do what he knew to be his swing, but the added rush of the open threw everything out of kilter. fun game isnt it.

[Manavs]

please dont interpret my opinion with your accuracy of your quote. i believe Ross's issue is not a physical golf swing issue as it is a mental thing. now mental things are not observable as mental things because obviously they are mental. but what is observable is the body's motion of carrying out the mental disruption.

its NOT his swing. its his ability to handle the situation he's in, which includes pressure packed moments, that initiate what appears to him to be a change his golf swing. he's trying to fix his golf swing with his swing, rather than handle his mental situation.

[Manavs]

so i ask, what was the problem? the technique he was lifting it? no way!!! the body started to kick in a chemical response to tell the mind to STOP!
no what if you were to be given a million dollars if you were to finish the 100 reps? now we have an interesting dilemma. i just gave you a goal. the problem is the ability to mentally suffer thru the physical pain that will get you to the goal, creating a mental barrier/obstacle.

take this back to golf - tiger woods is better at getting thru this mental barrier than anyone else and his golf swing has changed over and over thru the years. his one constant was that when the shit hits the fan he stays calm and doesnt listen to the body's emotion.

[Manavs]

(sorry about the multiple posts - i could not get it into one post- somethings screwy)

[charnockpro]

I have just watched numerous pitchers in slow motion and they don’t actually release any angle in the pitching “lever” until after the ball has gone, the right arm does straighten but only post impact, not beforehand, one of the big things in The Golf Machine is the flat left wrist cocked right wrist position, can you achieve that by extending the right arm in the downswing? I know you will now go on about right forearm tracing and the like…., I do subscribe to the fact that there is more than one way to swing a golf club, and not one “system” should be taught to any one person

The Lever and application of force 2L is what you are referring to I take it when you reference the Golf Machine?

Because mental things are not observable it is an easy thing to say, a get out clause in fact, if you look back at my statement he has hit the shots he hit whilst in contention at Turnberry, when he has not been anywhere near a lead or under leadership pressure

Your reference to Tiger woods does not mention his unenviable once in a lifetime skill and prowess, he is another Nicklaus but may well prove better in years to come, what the weightlifting analogy has got to do with it I have no idea, there is no physical pain involved in a bad golf swing it is about application of a swing not a lift, Tigers ability to swing the club the way he does comes from a lot of practice, good coaching and a shed load of talent.

I also get the feeling that this disagrees with the thesis that is your book and anyone who dares to question your findings will always get shot down, the best teachers look at swings with many different view points the “method” teachers do not and pigeon hole everyone

[Manavs]

Originally Posted by charnockpro

I have just watched numerous pitchers in slow motion and they don’t actually release any angle in the pitching “lever” until after the ball has gone, the right arm does straighten but only post impact, not beforehand, one of the big things in The Golf Machine is the flat left wrist cocked right wrist position, can you achieve that by extending the right arm in the downswing?

Im glad you took a look at a pitcher - now if you look back at a golfer from the front on position you will see that the golfer's right arm also does NOT straighten until after the ball is gone also. - You just proved my point for me in their similarities - thank you.

my original point was that focusing on straightening your right arm i have found to be far more beneficial for more golfers than trying to keep ones right elbow connected to the body - the elbow bending will happen naturally as an effect of the extension.

Originally Posted by charnockpro

I know you will now go on about right forearm tracing and the like…., I do subscribe to the fact that there is more than one way to swing a golf club, and not one “system” should be taught to any one person

The Lever and application of force 2L is what you are referring to I take it when you reference the Golf Machine?

your taking a huge assumption here - i dont know why you making this personal? all i am talking about is the concept of extension being more useful than the concept of a connected right elbow for a player. (which happens if extension is taking place)

in this thread i have stated what i have observed thru my experiences, and gone out of my way to give different explanations to help you understand a viewpoint - not agree with me mind you, just understand where i'm coming from. and this gets you to start assuming you now where im going to go with the discussion? and what i believe in, and whats in my book that you may or may not have read???

Originally Posted by charnockpro

Because mental things are not observable it is an easy thing to say, a get out clause in fact, if you look back at my statement he has hit the shots he hit whilst in contention at Turnberry, when he has not been anywhere near a lead or under leadership pressure

Mental things are NOT observable? you couldn't pick up on Tom Watson's mental collapse at that last putt on the 72nd green during the same Open? or how about most of Greg Normans career! this is an entirely different topic lets not start.

Originally Posted by charnockpro

Your reference to Tiger woods does not mention his unenviable once in a lifetime skill and prowess, he is another Nicklaus but may well prove better in years to come, what the weightlifting analogy has got to do with it I have no idea, there is no physical pain involved in a bad golf swing it is about application of a swing not a lift, Tigers ability to swing the club the way he does comes from a lot of practice, good coaching and a shed load of talent.

i apologized in my last response that i was having problem multi quoting it and now as i look back at the weightlifting analogy a few sentences got cut out prior to what was posted -

Originally Posted by charnockpro

I also get the feeling that this disagrees with the thesis that is your book and anyone who dares to question your findings will always get shot down, the best teachers look at swings with many different view points the “method” teachers do not and pigeon hole everyone

again a pretty bold and inaccurate assumption here on your part. in fact, question my findings - please! but allow me the courtesy to respond in a manner that explains my viewpoint. agree or disagree with it, i dont shoot down, cause quite frankly, once i've explained my approach i dont care what you do with it cause i know full well that ive done my part to explain it. thats where the responsibility lies- in explaining and sharing ones findings. i feel that i've done that here and you decided to attack me - so be it. i have no desire to change the world, or push a system or teach one system like you elude to -
good luck and be well
Michael