Forged Irons - How soft is the material

[Pa Jayhawk]

I currently own i3+ irons. I live in an area (and with some of my shots) where playing in rough terrain (rocks, wood, etc) is very common. My i3+ irons hold up well with the abuse. I have never played Forged irons and am considering the Mizuno MP60's. I hear alot about clubs getting marred just banging around in the bag. On the course, is there a big difference?? Will I mess up the clubs much faster, rip the crome finish off and render them butt ugly in a very short period of time, or do they hold up relatively the same. Granted I don't expect them to hold up to a full shot off a boulder, but is there a big difference. Also if you do nick them up is there any kind of issue with the finish flaking away or anything to look out for???

[ezra76]

I hit a rock under the surface when taking a divot with my 7iron. Nasty.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by ezra76

I hit a rock under the surface when taking a divot with my 7iron. Nasty.

I remember the thread well, and one of the things that made me think of asking. I usually try to stick with my 7i and SW in bad situations, and they get scuffed up a bit, but nothing out of control. I do run into rocks on occasion under the fairway, and it is just a really rocky area. Most of it though is just loose pebbles or gravel type stuff. I have even been known to play my 7i off of gravel cart paths if the drop is less than desirable. I don't mind giving them a few battle scars but am worried alot of scuffs or a small dings may cause the finish to deteriorate in time faster than a normal club.

Trying to decide if Forged irons are maybe not the best thing to buy for this area.

edit1 - I guess a good question may be, What happened with your 7i over time?? Does it pretty much look the same as it did when the damaged happened, or did it turn into something worse over time.

[ezra76]

No, it looks the same. Maybe better now the that the sharp edges have worn down. Forged will definitely wear quicker but how long do you keep a set? I would definitely recommend getting a set you can easily find a replacement iron for. I'd have another 7iron in a heartbeat if I could find one. I have a few very small dings in my 9 but the rest are pretty good. I don't get a lot of bag chatter since I walk.

[Pa Jayhawk]

I've had the current set around 3 years. I thought I would keep them longer, but think I may be able to get better play with less offset. Here are the SW and 7i (the one I have played off gravel cart paths and most shots out of the woods and unspeakable lies) which are by far my most battered clubs, but nothing I can't live with. I like to think I may get a good 5 years out of the next set.

[limpalong]

Originally Posted by FKA Pa Jayhawk

I currently own i3+ irons. I live in an area (and with some of my shots) where playing in rough terrain (rocks, wood, etc) is very common. My i3+ irons hold up well with the abuse. I have never played Forged irons and am considering the Mizuno MP60's. I hear alot about clubs getting marred just banging around in the bag. On the course, is there a big difference?? Will I mess up the clubs much faster, rip the crome finish off and render them butt ugly in a very short period of time, or do they hold up relatively the same. Granted I don't expect them to hold up to a full shot off a boulder, but is there a big difference. Also if you do nick them up is there any kind of issue with the finish flaking away or anything to look out for???

There are, in my experience, three variables in club materials that each have their own personality. First, you have the soft carbon steel forgings. Let's talk about them.

Mizuno, Titleist (the carbon steel forgings), Nike forged blades... this are soft carbon steel forgings with a light chrome finish. Even clubs banging together in your bag can inflict dings. Need to hit an 8 iron out of a fairway bunker? Plan on seeing some good grooves in the sole from the sand. Regular play can even see heavy face wear... for players like you probably only dime-sized spots exactly in the center of the blade... where you make contact. Those who appreciate the fine forgings will usually look past the wear issues. But, playing Pings and moving to forged will certainly introduce you to a 'new' look after most every round.

Some of the cast clubs on the market can be almost as 'ding' prone as forged blades. Callaway has polished a finish on the bottom of some of their irons that scratches easily. The stainless alloys utilized by Titleist are softer than those used by Ping and also "age" less gracefully. Just because it is cast rather than forged does not necessarily guarantee longevity.

The third material, that of which you are used to, is the heat treated stainless utilized by Ping. Pings are virtually indestructible. I have played Pings for an entire season and they look like they have only a couple of rounds on them. My Eye 2+'s still look relatively new after hundreds of rounds. No forging on the market would hold up to the rounds of use and abuse that my Pings have experienced.

If you are worried about offset, there are some other options with Ping. You mention you are playing I3+'s. The I3+ Blade has less offset and is just (in my opinion) as easy to play. I think if you check specs on Pings website you will find the I5's have less offset than your I3+'s. Both of those choices will continue to give you the durability you are accusomted to.

Now, I'll really step out where someone will "slap my hands"! Please!!! Before you purchase MP60's, find some to demo! Those who love them... love them! But, the 60's, even though a cavity back design, were not the easiest to hit. There will be a ton of difference between the 60's and your I3+'s. A number of folks say the MP32's were easier to hit than the MP60's.

So many clubs... so little time! Make every attempt to demo before you buy. Good luck as you begin your search for new sticks!!!!!

[warbirdlover]

1020 steel used in forged (Mizuno) clubs is not alloyed, softer (about 30 Rockwell C) and will easily ding. That characteristic is what gives them the "feel" that makes them popular. Cast clubs are usually made from stainless steel, much more alloyed, harder and able to take abuse more. I like the feel I get from my Pings but many don't like it. If I had to play where there were lot's of rocks and stones I wouldn't want to use forged irons.

Guess limpalong beat me to this same argument only in more detail. Now if you took those forged clubs and carburized them (60 Rockwell C surface, 30 Rockwell C core) you would truly have some indestructable clubs. The rocks wouldn't ding your clubs, your clubs would ding the rocks!! (Of course you'd lose that "feel" you like so much with your forged irons).

[Bubble Head]

Long ago and far far away, I took many mechanical engineering courses. Given the relative hardness difference between the ball and the metal of the iron, it doesn't make much sense that the material of the club face changes the feel. The shape of the head, the grip and the shaft should have a far greater effect. Does anyone know of any controlled studies of the effect of material on feel?

[warbirdlover]

Well, an example of that is the miracle material Cleveland is now using in their irons which is really just "ductile iron". Ductile iron has graphite "nodules" which DOES in fact, absorb vibration (and noise) so there can be a difference in feel based on materials used. Ductile iron is used (on low strength gears) to make "quieter" gearsets.

[limpalong]

Originally Posted by Bubble Head

Long ago and far far away, I took many mechanical engineering courses. Given the relative hardness difference between the ball and the metal of the iron, it doesn't make much sense that the material of the club face changes the feel. The shape of the head, the grip and the shaft should have a far greater effect. Does anyone know of any controlled studies of the effect of material on feel?

Probably 10 years ago, Golf Digest did a "blind fold" study with folks of varying skill levels hitting both cast and forged. (Certainly, not blindfolded, but the clubs disguised where it was indistinguishable to the testers as to which clubhead was cast and which was forged.) It was amazing what a small percent could actually tell a difference. The test was set up with 3 or 4 cast heads and 3 or 4 forged heads. Most testers would include cast in their forged "feel" group and visa versa. Lately, there has been some testing done with earplugs. It seems a lot of the feel is in the sound.

The forged/cast feel debate will rage on for decades. What I think I feel is different than what another golfer thinks he/she feels. That doesn't make either of us wrong!! Feel is very subjective.

Bottom line to Jayhawk's question about durability, cast is far more durable than forged... FAR more durable!!!!

[limpalong]

Originally Posted by warbirdlover

Well, an example of that is the miracle material Cleveland is now using in their irons which is really just "ductile iron". Ductile iron has graphite "nodules" which DOES in fact, absorb vibration (and noise) so there can be a difference in feel based on materials used. Ductile iron is used (on low strength gears) to make "quieter" gearsets.

That is really interesting stuff!!! I need to do some research and try to determine what DI alloy they are using. DI is extremely resiliant. Cast iron... different from steel alloy castings... can be quite brittle. Ductile iron, on the other hand has many of the advantages of cast iron without the brittleness. Typically, you can beat on DI with a sledge hammer and it will just spring back into its cast shape. Cast iron, on the other hand, would shatter. So, my question is, how can a ductile iron club have loft/lies changed? Wouldn't the ductile tendancies just make the iron "spring" back to the cast angles? Probably a stupid question with an easy answer, but an interesting topic.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by limpalong

...
If you are worried about offset, there are some other options with Ping. You mention you are playing I3+'s. The I3+ Blade has less offset and is just (in my opinion) as easy to play. I think if you check specs on Pings website you will find the I5's have less offset than your I3+'s. Both of those choices will continue to give you the durability you are accusomted to.

Now, I'll really step out where someone will "slap my hands"! Please!!! Before you purchase MP60's, find some to demo! Those who love them... love them! But, the 60's, even though a cavity back design, were not the easiest to hit. There will be a ton of difference between the 60's and your I3+'s. A number of folks say the MP32's were easier to hit than the MP60's.

So many clubs... so little time! Make every attempt to demo before you buy. Good luck as you begin your search for new sticks!!!!!

Thanks for the info. One of the main reasons I wanted to check into this is because there are other option like the i5's and even the S59/S58 models with less offset. Not sure I am ready for or liked the S59 as well as the MP60. I have actually demoed the MP60's on numerous occasions since they were introduced to the market. I also demoed the S59 and i5 back when the i5 first came out. Nothing wrong with the i5, I did like the less offset. Although I didn't care for it as well as the MP60.

I kinda figure if I feel the MP60 will hold up to the course, I will start demoing them again and am looking at maybe buying in March or April when the season starts back up. I guess another option may be to see how it goes. As I mention, I have a tendancy to rely on the 7i for bad situations. Not only have I grown accustomed to it for most shots, but figured if it became damaged it was only one club. So I could also keep my other 7i around if it appears to be an issue, but this may become an issue with consistancy among clubs so probably not a wise choice. I will also likely buy seperate wedges, so I will have at least 3 other options for this.

Probably the big thing is I don't want to demo the MP60 again until I am comfortable with the idea that it will hold up to the course, because of that taunting feeling when I hit the club.

Buy me, Buy me, Buy me ...

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by warbirdlover

Now if you took those forged clubs and carburized them (60 Rockwell C surface, 30 Rockwell C core) you would truly have some indestructable clubs.

Do you have any links that provide the softness ratings, or are just about all forged clubs rated roughly the same? Just curious if there may be other similar clubs that may be a better option.

I guess I could also look at Cast. My first set was the Wilson Fat Shaft Cast Irons, so if I consider cast I could take those out on this course and bang them around for a while. I did use them for about 3 months after moving up here, but switched to the Pings right after the move. So I had no real problems with playing Cast.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Bubble Head

Long ago and far far away, I took many mechanical engineering courses. Given the relative hardness difference between the ball and the metal of the iron, it doesn't make much sense that the material of the club face changes the feel. The shape of the head, the grip and the shaft should have a far greater effect. Does anyone know of any controlled studies of the effect of material on feel?

Most of what I have heard in relation there being a difference in "Feel" between Cast and Forged is in fact a myth. This was based on a study by the guy who used to do the testing for the USGA. His name slipped my mind. Although I am not sure the same may not stand true between Forged and Stainless, I just really do not know. For me though, it is not a matter of how the club feels at impact, outside of it being comfortable. It is more a matter of the offset design, and the feeling I get when lining up the shot as well as the constant thought that I am always trying to control my "Draw bias" that may not be as apparent. I am not heartset on a forged club, and do not even know enough about the material to say it may be better. In my case, a forged option is likely worse for my needs. I just like the design, looks and feel of the MP60. Although the material may not provide a different feel, the design of the club certainly will.

I only wish at this point for my sake the MP60 came in a Cast or Stainless design

[limpalong]

Keep in mind, if your 7-iron gets excessively worn... breaks... you toss it in the pond... whatever, you can call Ping with the serial number and they will send you an exact match. Likewise, you may want/need the offset of your long irons but want less offset in your scoring clubs. Again, you can call in the serial number of your I3+'s and get, say, new 7-PW of I3+ Blades matching your originals in loft, lie, and length. The options are endless!!!