The state of labor in the U.S. today

[Bravo]

Well after a lot of research, I finally sprang for the HD TV...got a Samsung 5054 - 50 inch plasma.

I had to hack out some bookshelves to find a suitable place to hang the unit. Took a long time to hack out one vertical column to leave other shelves around it but it came out well.

So I ordered the TV from Circuit City. Was intimidated about hanging it and ordered their TV installation service for $350 (normally $400). I am thinking, "this is outrageous". The name of the company is Firedog.

The rep comes out last night and starts to work. Sharp fellow. (Told me later he had a degree from a very well respected local liberal arts college and said, "Here I am out hanging TV's!).

I asked him how much he got paid per hour. Ends up that he is the local manager and says that he had to fire two people this week and two quit, so he is doing them himself until he can hire more.

Here's the damn killer: they don't pay by the hour. They pay by the install: $130 for each installation!!! He said that he had done EIGHT today alone: made $1000 in one day. Told me that the minimum an installer will make is $36,000 per year and if you worked reasonably hard and steady, would make about $50,000.

And he can't find people to work!

We have a 2.7% unemployment rate in our metro. That's very low I realize, but this is insane.....

[wirehair]

Surely there's a college kid willing to pick up a few bucks over the break. A weeks work will buy beer for the entire semester.

[ezra76]

Did he tell you how much he pays for insurance, taxes, tools, supplies, fuel, worker's comp insurance... ect. He's doing them himself because he's paying guys chumpchange and I'll bet my bottom dollar that come "payday" he was short of funds for them, hence why he can't keep anyone. This stuff is all the same racket as furniture deliveries for large retailers. The sub it all out, work the crap out the contractors who can barely keep up with the work and bills. The workers want thier $$ and the contractors are waiting for it from the big company, in the meantime they are barely keeping fuel in the trucks and feeding thier own families. It's hardly as lucrative as looks. Plus the big companies like "Circuit City" as super strict on who they will contract to. I couldn't do it with my record and if I could I'd need a brand new van, $20K in tools, insurance and enough $$ to keep it running for 3-4 months. For $36K per year you can keep that.

I don't want to get started on a huge tangent here but the economy is going to crap. The middle class is disappearing by the day. Corporations are selling at low costs, driving out competitors, raising prices, investing in more fixed assets and hiring the guys they drove out of business for lower-middle class wages. It'll happen in the business I'm in soon enough. Someone will invest the half billion, drive everyone out with the lowest prices, superior management and effieciency along with the financial backup to take a loss. Once that's been done I'd be left with "Sorry, we can't hire you for $8.75/hr. because of your record.". I'm sure there will be plenty of fresh immigrant workers jumping on that $$ though and the investors will sit back and collect the returns. Now we're left with basically a country with 5% of the population making well over a million/yr. minimum and the other 95% making well under 50K/yr. It's happening every day and only getting worse. Take any history course focusing on political and especially economic systems throughout history and it's pretty easy to see the direction things are going. We've got large companies moving into an area and creating these little tailormade communities for the workers. Since they own the whole damn thing they are making $$ on the $$ they are paying the workers on top of everything. Meanwhile, on the outskirts, the violence and craziness will only continue to get worse as the poor get poorer and more stressed.

Alright, that's enough for now.

[VtDivot]

When I was in high school in Cape Breton the unemployment rate was something like 13%. McDonalds was a good job if you had connections. Hard to believe that these kids won't install TV's for a grand a week.

[Rockford35]

When I was in high school in Cape Breton the unemployment rate was something like 13%. McDonalds was a good job if you had connections. Hard to believe that these kids won't install TV's for a grand a week.

The Tim Hortons in town here (well, there are several, but I digress) is offering bonuses for signing contracts to work there or raises of 25% after 3 months work. Just can't find anyone to do the work right now.

When I was 21, I worked at a Walmart putting myself through school. There was just nothing available at the time otherwise. I made 7.10 an hour and paid my way through university, lived on my own, owned a car that was less than 7 years old and even supported my younger brother for a stint.

If you need a McDonald's job, let me know. I have good connections. :laugh:

R35

[VtDivot]

If you need a McDonald's job, let me know. I have good connections. :laugh:

R35

If it gets as bad as EZ says I might need to take you up on that

[ezra76]

When I was in high school in Cape Breton the unemployment rate was something like 13%. McDonalds was a good job if you had connections. Hard to believe that these kids won't install TV's for a grand a week.

That's the thing, it's not a grand a week. That's gross, not net. It's a private subcontractor, not Circuit City. It saves them a bunch of money and limits liability. If your house burns down do to a wiring error then the contractor gets sued, not Circuit City. Plus they get to pay out that $130 per install with no employees to cover under comp and medical ins. instead of a someone with an actual electrical background with the "proper" knowledge and licensing to handle such things.

Don't think that it doesn't roll down into another mini-LLC eventually either. I went to Sears to look into a delivery contract a few years ago. That's on lockdown. Same guy has 6 trucks and 12 guys working for him doing the deliveries. So nobody is making any "grand a week". The sub is making what looks to be good $$ off that $130 per delivery and might even get up around $130-$140K a year gross. Taxes and he's down under $100K. Pay his helper and it's $75K. He's also got to pay comp insurance, liability insurance, commercial vehicle insurance, health insurance (good luck if he has a family). That's not even touching tools and supplies.

Sling is a contractor, let him tell you. I worked for a GC back 10 years ago. He did 1.2 million in business and didn't even make $100K for himself. Of course that 90K starts looking good when Home Depot, Lowes or some other corporation starts going larger scale, prices every small contractor out of a job and puts them under. Don't worry though, the corporation will offer them the "subcontractor" position so they can go back to hammering nails with an underpaid, underexperienced helper for 1/3 of what they were making per year.

[Rockford35]

That's the thing, it's not a grand a week. That's gross, not net. It's a private subcontractor, not Circuit City. It saves them a bunch of money and limits liability. If your house burns down do to a wiring error then the contractor gets sued, not Circuit City. Plus they get to pay out that $130 per install with no employees to cover under comp and medical ins. instead of a someone with an actual electrical background with the "proper" knowledge and licensing to handle such things.

Don't think that it doesn't roll down into another mini-LLC eventually either. I went to Sears to look into a delivery contract a few years ago. That's on lockdown. Same guy has 6 trucks and 12 guys working for him doing the deliveries. So nobody is making any "grand a week". The sub is making what looks to be good $$ off that $130 per delivery and might even get up around $130-$140K a year gross. Taxes and he's down under $100K. Pay his helper and it's $75K. He's also got to pay comp insurance, liability insurance, commercial vehicle insurance, health insurance (good luck if he has a family). That's not even touching tools and supplies.

Sling is a contractor, let him tell you. I worked for a GC back 10 years ago. He did 1.2 million in business and didn't even make $100K for himself. Of course that 90K starts looking good when Home Depot, Lowes or some other corporation starts going larger scale, prices every small contractor out of a job and puts them under. Don't worry though, the corporation will offer them the "subcontractor" position so they can go back to hammering nails with an underpaid, underexperienced helper for 1/3 of what they were making per year.

I suppose it pays to get an education then, no?

I can tell you straight up that it's exactly the opposite around these parts. Want a carpet installed? Wait 8 weeks, minimum. Want some finishing woodworking done? 6 months, minimum. You want a framing job? Do you know what a 2x4 is? You're hired.

The province is booming, yet we're still losing labour to ALberta because their population dwarfs ours. Their service industry is even lesser skilled and filled than ours is. Kids at McDonalds are making 35K+ and they can't fill positions because those kids that were working at McD's are now driving trucks for oil companies and drill crews making double that.

The worst of it is that alot of these guys are taking on these jobs with zero benefits, paying little into pensions and none are saving for the future. Guess who's gonna have to take care of these slobs when their old creaky backs are acting up when they're 60.

R35

[VtDivot]

The worst of it is that alot of these guys are taking on these jobs with zero benefits, paying little into pensions and none are saving for the future. Guess who's gonna have to take care of these slobs when their old creaky backs are acting up when they're 60.

R35

Hopefully you will have moved down here by then

[Bravo]

Did he tell you how much he pays for insurance, taxes, tools, supplies, fuel, worker's comp insurance... ect. He's doing them himself because he's paying guys chumpchange and I'll bet my bottom dollar that come "payday" he was short of funds for them, hence why he can't keep anyone. This stuff is all the same racket as furniture deliveries for large retailers. The sub it all out, work the crap out the contractors who can barely keep up with the work and bills. The workers want thier $$ and the contractors are waiting for it from the big company, in the meantime they are barely keeping fuel in the trucks and feeding thier own families. It's hardly as lucrative as looks. Plus the big companies like "Circuit City" as super strict on who they will contract to. I couldn't do it with my record and if I could I'd need a brand new van, $20K in tools, insurance and enough $$ to keep it running for 3-4 months. For $36K per year you can keep that.

I don't want to get started on a huge tangent here but the economy is going to crap. The middle class is disappearing by the day. Corporations are selling at low costs, driving out competitors, raising prices, investing in more fixed assets and hiring the guys they drove out of business for lower-middle class wages. It'll happen in the business I'm in soon enough. Someone will invest the half billion, drive everyone out with the lowest prices, superior management and effieciency along with the financial backup to take a loss. Once that's been done I'd be left with "Sorry, we can't hire you for $8.75/hr. because of your record.". I'm sure there will be plenty of fresh immigrant workers jumping on that $$ though and the investors will sit back and collect the returns. Now we're left with basically a country with 5% of the population making well over a million/yr. minimum and the other 95% making well under 50K/yr. It's happening every day and only getting worse. Take any history course focusing on political and especially economic systems throughout history and it's pretty easy to see the direction things are going. We've got large companies moving into an area and creating these little tailormade communities for the workers. Since they own the whole damn thing they are making $$ on the $$ they are paying the workers on top of everything. Meanwhile, on the outskirts, the violence and craziness will only continue to get worse as the poor get poorer and more stressed.

Alright, that's enough for now.

This guy was NOT complaining about the revenue, not complaining about the cost of insurance, workers comp etc. He was extremely frustrated that he could not find people who would take a job earning an average of $45,000 per year.

As to his truck and equipment....he had a little Toyota Tacoma and his equipment consisted of a Ryobi 18V drill.

From my perspective you've got to go back to the average labor rate per hour for (limited skill at best) labor. It should be running around $8-9 per hour in this part of the country.

The install took 90 minutes, was extremely simple: take a bubble level, draw a pencil line on the wall, screw in four bolts to wall studs. Turn TV over with back facing upward. Attach brackets with 8 bolts. Pick up TV and hang it on the rails. Tighten swivel screws. Done....and for that, I - the consumer - paid $350........normally $400.

I am sorry but that is a rip off. If I paid a plumber or an electrician, people who are skilled journeymen, people who must go to school, pass stringent tests, become liscensed by state government - for 90 minutes work - it wouldn't be ANYWHERE near $400 - and that's to their employer, not the employee. Honestly, to learn this job, it would take 90 minutes of training. Not years of training like a plumber or electrician.

What we learned in college economics is that in a free market economy, prices for almost everything are driven by supply and demand. That is what Rock is referring to in the Alberta vs Saskatchewan example. Demand in Alberta is so high that prices (labour rates/hour) are hgher, therefore getting labour in his province is extremely tight.

This is similar to what we have here. Of metro areas with at least 1 million people, Birmingham is #1 in the nation with a 2.7% unemployment rate....but what I really think is that FIREDOG is a ripoff and is making money hand over fist....

[ezra76]

That is a rip off and you probably could have paid an elecrician less to do it and install something else while he was there. I have a hard time believing the contractor would be paying anywhere near $45K/yr. to a helper and I'd bet he's lucky to be making that himself after all is said and done. I just don't like big corporations subbing out work and what seems to me like just dodging and weaving in/around legal, licensing (and in some cases union) loopholes just to make the rich richer, rip off the middle class and put the lower middle out of jobs and job and business oppurtunities.

I'll admit that there are plenty of people out there that are just not willing to put forth the effort to find work. I know I had a very hard time years back when I was released from prison. The state agencies were very little help and would basically do nothing unless a person was recieving money from them for unemployment. It still only took me 3weeks to find a full time job, starting at $12/hr. and up to $15 in less than a year. So there are still opputunities out there, it's up to the individual to put forth the effort though. There's just a lot of psychological factors involved in it as well. I believe that the majority of people, myself included, will reach a certain income or "success" level and (I don't want to say contented) hit a rut, where they will just stay. I suppose it's relative to what a person wants above and beyond their needs. I made a conscious decision to limit my material wants in order to have more time and less demands on my time. Time is money and in my case I chose time for a little while, now that's shifting and I'd like to spend some of that time to put forth a little more effort to make more money and secure the ability to do so for a while.

I just like typing.

[SCGolfer]

Ez, The reason they sub it out is the same reason you say these guys don't make any money. Why would a company that can sub things out purchase the things it would take to do the job themselves?? Why would Circuit City want to hire 12 guys to install tv's, and buy 12 trucks and equipment and pay their salary, workers comp, insurance for families, blah, blah, blah, at all the Circuit Cities in the world?? You know how much that would cost them?? They can sub it out to Jim Bob that has his own truck and tools and employees for a heck of a lot cheaper. I work in the housing industry and we sub out everything, every single thing that we do is done by someone else that pays all that stuff for his own company. We just finished building a house that I designed for our Electrician and believe me he is making plenty of money. His guys stringing wire may not be, but most of them are 18 years old and will go on to do better things anyway.


Jason

[VtDivot]

Jason makes good sense here.

We are looking at adding 4 engineers next year to our team, those 4 engineers are going to cost A LOT of money. There has been talk about trimming 2 of these positions and hiring 2 contractors for a 6 month - 1 year term and have them do nothing but spit out UI code - which noone wants to do anyways

This way we don't need to take a huge budget hit in 2008 and beyond for employing and insuring people, 401k etc. Plus it's way easier in IT to find good contractors than it is to find permanent people to fill engineering needs.

[warbirdlover]

All you have to do in the midwest is go to a tech school and learn how to run a CNC machine, come to our company and make $25/hour with paid (almost) insurance and vacations. Also get a company pension and company matches what you put in your IRA. You don't need a degree if you look around. This is the Milwaukee/Chicago part of the country and jobs all over the place right now. Michigan is another story completely. Never rely on a job tied into the auto industry. But heavy equipment, or companies with military or aerospace contracts are safe.

[Bravo]

Well the Firedog ripoff continues...

I ordered a universal remote to control everything....cost $109 plus tax....

They wanted to charge me $129 to program it....I was incredulous that they would charge more in labor to program it than the hardware itself cost.

The sales rep at CC made it sound complicated to program...have to connect it to PC through USB port blah, blah, blah....I turned them down.

I hooked it up to the PC and went through a 60 second tutorial. Programmed it in about ten minutes.

And they were going to charge me an effffinggggg $129.00!