Forget "Don't Mess With Texas"

[DaveE]

Don't mess with Singapore should be the motto of drug smugglers everywhere.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10275145/

[GregInOz]

This has been big news in Australia for a few weeks now. He's been in boob for a few years awaiting his fate, but now that they're actually going to do it (actually i think they did it earlier this morning) there's been a lot of publicity. Everyone in Australia knows that much of Asia has the death penalty, or huge amounts of gaol time for drugs, yet in the last year there have been 12 Aussies convicted in Bali alone. Sad really.

[Rockford35]

Moral of the story?

Don't smuggle drugs.

End of story. One less waste of skin on the face of the earth. I wish they had such rules accross the globe.

Sometimes people miss the heart of the story. The guy was a friggin' drug runner. So what's so hard to understand about his punishment?

I don't get the outcry for this. You smuggle, you hang. Looks good on him.

R35

[GregInOz]

True, I'll certainly not mourn the loss of one more drug runner, it just freaks me out that people know the consequences, and still do crap like this. It's pathetic. Risking your life for a few grand? Sad sad sad.

[DaveE]

Originally Posted by GregInOz

True, I'll certainly not mourn the loss of one more drug runner, it just freaks me out that people know the consequences, and still do crap like this. It's pathetic. Risking your life for a few grand? Sad sad sad.

I thought about that too. Why not choose a country where the punishment is not so harsh. Don't do the crime if you can't do.......

[Rockford35]

Originally Posted by DaveE

I thought about that too. Why not choose a country where the punishment is not so harsh. Don't do the crime if you can't do.......

Why not make it mandatory law that drug smuggling comes with a death sentence.

Follow the leader....

R35

[DaveE]

Originally Posted by Rockford35

Why not make it mandatory law that drug smuggling comes with a death sentence.

Follow the leader....

R35

If you've ever had the misfortune of watching what drugs can do to persons life, it makes you're idea seem very wise.

And that's saying alot considering it's your idea.

[Silver]

I'm probably a bleeding heart, but I feel a certain sympathy, assuming his story is true, if he was running the drugs in order to pay a loanshark to save his brother.

I mean, people do strange shit to help family, I'm not saying it was a good idea or that he still doesn't deserve some serious punishment, but I would certainly say that if (IF!) (and I know very few details, so a lot of this is made up in my head) this was his first offence and his story was true, I wouldn't want to see the death penalty imposed. I think it's harsh, cruel, and unusual given the circumstances.

IF he has a record for this kind of thing and the bit about his brother was bullshit, let the crows eat his eyes out while he's hanging because people like him are causing serious f'ing problems for the world. But even without him, there's always someone in line to take his place.


I view the death penalty as a messed up penalty in our world. I used to think it was a good penalty but simply poorly administrated - ie make it quick as opposed to the 12 years on death row BS you see in a lot of places like the US. Now, I don't think I hold that view as much, I would prefer to see advances in corrections theory that lead towards appropriate rehabilitation and education.

[SiberianDVM]

"Regular, or extra crispy?" (bring back Old Sparky) is how I feel about the death penalty, for certain crimes. In public.

Smuggling drugs is not one of them. Drug abuse is a stupid, but personal decision, and if someone wants to fry their brain, I say let them do it. Now, if they decide they need to break into my house or mug me in order to pay for their drugs, I think I should be able to shoot them without penalty.

Our (the USA) anti-drug policies have not been effective for decades. All we have accomplished is having made some drug czars rich. Legalize, and tax the stuff, just like booze.

Crimes that derserve what this poor shmuck got (IMHO): treason, premeditated murder, sex crimes involving the death of a child.

[Rockford35]

Originally Posted by Silver

.... I would prefer to see advances in corrections theory that lead towards appropriate rehabilitation and education.

In the meantime, The Hilton's better start building prisons instead of hotels for the rising numbers of death penalty cases...

Do you seriously want your kids paying for a mass murderer's 700 year sentence in prison?

We already have too many people on this earth, we might as well start somewhere since we've already fooled with medicine, flu vaccinations, ect....

R35

[Silver]

I think we'd be better served by having a proactive approach to crime, rather than the reactive. Let's start by developing effective methods to reduce the commission of crimes, as opposed to effective methods of disposing of criminals that are a construct of societal problems (poverty, racism, narcissism, mental illness, drug abuse, etc).

I honestly feel that some people are messed in the head enough to either be locked up, or put to death (in some rare instances). But before we get into the business of mass murder, I figure we should do our best to eliminate the problems that lead people down those paths in the first place.

Once we've done that, we can start turfing people!

[Bravo]

This is a facinating subject for me because I am a civilian who works exclusively in law enforcement agencies. As many of you know, my career has been in IT - in various management positions from business development to operations and general management. I worked in healthcare for the vast majority of my career. About four years ago - I got into the 'public safety' IT market and work very often with criminal investigators. From this, I have learned a great deal about narcotics trafficking...and have spent quite a bit of time with drug commanders from some of the largest LE agencies in the U.S. and Canada. (From a Canuck perspective, I have met senior command personnel from every major city in the nation in addition to the RCMP).

1) Without any question whatsoever - drug usage drives the vast majority of violent crime in the world. Murder, armed robbery, burglary, aggravated assault, etc are driven moreso by drug usage than by any other societal factor.

2) Drug trafficking is also unquestionably a major source of funding for terrorist organizations. This includes numerous terrorist organizations that have committed no crimes against the U.S. - so my argument here has 'no American' angle. Domesitc Narcoterrorism in Central and South America is a prevalent issue.

3) Despite a huge amount of education and training of LE personnel and prosecutors, the criminal justice system makes mistakes from time to time. Most of these are unintentional, either through oversight or simple incompetence.

My perspective of cops has changed quite a bit since I started working with them. I expected a lot of really aggressive personalities who had a "save the world" attitude. I also expected a minimal level of formal education. Frankly, the vast, vast majority of them are government workers whose primary motivation is a good retirement program - and they have a good level of formal/university level education. Hiring practices now at most agencies do a very good job of weeding out overly aggressive personalities. While working in a uniformed capacity the job can be extraordinarily stressful. The vast majority are also very honest people. On the other hand, instances of corruption and (frankly) simple human frailty on the part of cops are heard every day - and everyone in the law enforcement community knows about it. Like every member of the population at large, the have their fair share of drug and alcohol abuse, domestic problems, money problems, divorce, kids with issues etc. They are people like the rest of us.

I have been facinated by their overall lack of interest in legislation. Frankly they rarely mention it. The criminal justice system in democratic socities has four parts: 1) Legislative 2) Enforcement 3) Judical and 4) Corrections. I would say with confidence that 98% of the cops I have met have little opinion about the legislative function and in a very dry way - see their job as enforcing - whatever - laws are on the books.

My view of the death penalty has changed since working in LE. If I knew FOR CERTAIN that an indivdual had committed certain heinous crimes, I would still be in favor of it. However, I am also certain that mistakes ARE made and for that reason - I am against the administration of this penalty. Yes - the financial cost to society is high - but mathematically eliminating the possibility of mistakenly putting someone to death is worth it in democratic societies who value life. Frankly I think that most 'wrongful convictions' in death penalty cases are a result of errors in prosecution vs errors in enforcement.

I would also add that I enjoy working with the typical LE officer much more than I did in healthcare. Once you provide software solutions that help them perform more efficiently and effectively - their gratefulness and loyalty are tremendous...the vast vast majority want to do a great job - but they are not infallible.

[Silver]

Well said B, and from an informed perspective. I like it.

[Rockford35]

Originally Posted by Bravo

Yes - the financial cost to society is high - but mathematically eliminating the possibility of mistakenly putting someone to death is worth it in democratic societies who value life. Frankly I think that most 'wrongful convictions' in death penalty cases are a result of errors in prosecution vs errors in enforcement.

Human beings aren't perfect. But lines drawn in the sand allow us to - without err in judgement - single out individuals who decide they are beyond the rules of society. Mistakes are made in prosecutions, sure, but most executions are done in "open and shut" cases. There is a difference between someone who shows complete disregard for the system and those that have mometary lapses in judgement. The only difference to me is one deserves to die, the other deserves to sit and think about his lapse for 25 years.

I'm also one who beleives that one's rights as a member of society end once you make the choice to break the rules that govern it. If you are convicted of a crime against society, you should have no rights as an individual until you are let out into society, expected to follow those rules and abide by them. The fact that many prisoners live better than most homeless people precipitates crime in itself. Wouldn't you like 3 squares a day, cable TV and a roof over your head during winter? Isn't imprisonment supposed to be a hardship?

Make the rules tougher, you'll see a decline and a fall into order of those willing to take risks. And if the death penalty for such crimes as rape, murder and manslaughter pave the way, i'm all for it.

I safely say this as I know that I will never be guilty of a crime that I didn't knowingly commit.

And, if I do, I deserve my fate.

It's as simple as that.

R35

[Kilted Arab]

I've been to Singapore a few times and I love the place.

It's clean, safe, multicultural and efficient in the extreme. To give but one example, I left my wallet in a taxi there in March. Panic when I found out, told my next business meeting contacts that I'd be delayed because I'd have to cancel credit cards etc.

They told me not to worry as the wallet would be returned to me - my hotel room key was in my wallet so they would know where to return it.

Bollox, thought I - either the next passenger in the cab or the driver would take the wallet, remove any cash and possibly bin the cards. So I went back to my hotel and told the concierge what had happened and asked for help in getting numbers for visa, mastercard etc. Again, I was told not to worry, the wallet would be returned. Bollox again, I thought - and cancelled the cards.

Then, two hours later, my wallet was returned. All the cash and all the cards still there.

I can think of nowhere else in the world where such honesty would be taken for granted.

Sure, they hang drug dealers. But guess what? There are no drug problems in Singapore. Sure, they fine you in you drop litter or chewing gum. But - guess what? The city is spotless.

Singapore is an excellent example of deterence working.