Have you driven a Ford, lately?

[Rockford35]

Some quick math:

60 minutes in an hour
24 hours in a day
1440 minutes in a day

365 days in a year
525600 minutes in a year

Ford lost 12 billion dollars in 2006

Which translates into $22831.05 per minute. Thats that price of a 2007V6 Mustang with a couple options.

Holy feck.

R35

[Davebud]

Maybe they should lay-off the crash dummies, and sell a few more of those cars they put into the wall.

[warbirdlover]

Well, guess I won't be driving any more Mercurys....

[bames]

To answer your question...No and never will!

[ezra76]

It's all accounting. How many companies have they accquired in the last few years? Have you driven a Jaguar lately?

[Golfbum]

Here's a thought.
Maybe people who live in NORTH AMERICA should support NORTH AMERICAN AUTO COMPANIES.
Afterall for every job in a Big Three Assembly Plant there is another 7 jobs in the parts plants.
The profits from the Big Three stay in NORTH AMERICA, and North American Stock holders.
Just a thought.

[Jules150]

maybe the gov. should raise our fuel standards so our american companies can sell overseas.

screw buying american cars, they suck...i drive a ford expedition that needs $3000 dollars worth of repairs each year, gets 7.5 mpg and cost 70 bucks to fill up, i cant wait to dump it and get something else, like a vw golf, they're sweet(But i think they're american now too)

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Golfbum

Here's a thought.
Maybe people who live in NORTH AMERICA should support NORTH AMERICAN AUTO COMPANIES.
Afterall for every job in a Big Three Assembly Plant there is another 7 jobs in the parts plants.
The profits from the Big Three stay in NORTH AMERICA, and North American Stock holders.
Just a thought.

Heres another thought. I guess it is now "North American" instead of just American.

Maybe the big three should consider keeping their plants in the USA, instead of Canada or Mexico if they want the citizens of the USA to have any kind of loyalty for the entire "American Made" sympathy tag that they try to throw on a product. I will stick to buying a product based on performance and dependability. Unfortunately the Big 3 got to greedy back in the early 80's when the US Government tried to take care of them with tariffs. In return, they jacked up their prices in spite of the American public.

So by North American, do you mean the Big 3 who seems to be shipping all their work out of the country, or the Foreign Auto Makers who seem more and more willing to bring assemby plants and jobs in to the USA.

I find it amazing everyone who talks about buying American makes it a matter of Jobs and not Product Quality. Personally I will never buy another car from the big 3 because I have had it with their lackluster quality, and never ending interest in saving money by creating jobs elsewhere.

Just my .02 cents from one who has lived in America all my life, but have come to the realization that if a company wants my business, then provide me a product that does not appear to be a matter of throwing it together for the cheapest possible cost, and then make it a matter of the American good and not product quality to buy their product. They had the first chance with me, unfortunately I felt ripped off by their product in my first several attempt to support their products. .

I for one am having a hard time weighing which is more American made at this point.

[Golfbum]

Originally Posted by FKA Pa Jayhawk

Heres another thought. I guess it is now "North American" instead of just American.

Maybe the big three should consider keeping their plants in the USA, instead of Canada or Mexico if they want the citizens of the USA to have any kind of loyalty for the entire "American Made" sympathy tag that they try to throw on a product. I will stick to buying a product based on performance and dependability. Unfortunately the Big 3 got to greedy back in the early 80's when the US Government tried to take care of them with tariffs. In return, they jacked up their prices in spite of the American public.

So by North American, do you mean the Big 3 who seems to be shipping all their work out of the country, or the Foreign Auto Makers who seem more and more willing to bring assemby plants and jobs in to the USA.

I find it amazing everyone who talks about buying American makes it a matter of Jobs and not Product Quality. Personally I will never buy another car from the big 3 because I have had it with their lackluster quality, and never ending interest in saving money by creating jobs elsewhere.

Just my .02 cents from one who has lived in America all my life, but have come to the realization that if a company wants my business, then provide me a product that does not appear to be a matter of throwing it together for the cheapest possible cost, and then make it a matter of the American good and not product quality to buy their product. They had the first chance with me, unfortunately I felt ripped off by their product in my first several attempt to support their products. .

I for one am having a hard time weighing which is more American made at this point.

I have to ask, does Senior Member mean you are an older person?

Just curious because The Big Three have had plants in CANADA for YEARS. The BIG THREE have won numerous JD POWER QUALITY AWARDS and some PLANTS IN CANADA have won those awards. I should know, I work at one of them. For years there was a huge difference between the US Dollar and Canadian Dollar and it was a big advantage for the Big Three to build cars in Canada. Plus health care costs, paid for by the company are far less than what they pay in USA. So you now know why they built plants in Canada.

Do you honestly think that Asian vehicles are built any different than ones being built by the Big Three? If so then you need to realize they are not. Their assembly lines and assembly processes are the same as ours. Only their employees do not have health benefits and good wages. Asian auto workers are paid far less and have far less buying power than we do.
I will admit that years ago the quality lacked in North American products. However that has changed. A properly maintained North American vehicle is just as good as an Asian vehicle.

As for the Expedition that needs $3000 in repairs every year, sorry but I find that hard to swallow. I have owned FORD vehicles since 1980 and I have had one warranty issue and that was back in 1981. 27 years of driving Ford products and I have one ONE WARRANTY ISSUE. Seems like a damn good track record to me.

What you have to realize is this, and think about this before you comment. 1000's of GM, Chrysler and Ford employees have lost their jobs and will lose their jobs in the near future. Those are high paying jobs, those are people who possibly buy the products your company produces. Those are the people that might take vacations and come to your city or town and spend money at local businesses, you might own one of those businesses. They are people who pay taxes in your city or towns, along with the companies they work for. Now if those plants close your town or city loses a huge chunk of their tax base.

If you do not think that is true then why have I read about cities complaining that Ford is closing a factory located within their tax payers base, and wondering how they can make up for that loss of taxes. Well the solution there is pretty simple, they'll just raise your taxes.

There, you have some good points to consider. Sure Toyota and Honda build cars in USA and Canada. But the majority of their vehicles are imported. Tarriffs on those vehicles are low when you compare the tarriffs on North American built vehicles going to Japan. Again, I know this, I work in the Auto Industry.

By the way, Ford was established in CANADA long before any of us were born, so you can blame Henry for that one.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Golfbum

I have to ask, does Senior Member mean you are an older person?

I will allow people form their own opinion about the quality of my Membership based on my actions and comments. I will not expect them to accept me because I am a senior member based only on post count and not my character. Kinda fits right in with this topic

Originally Posted by Golfbum

Just curious because The Big Three have had plants in CANADA for YEARS. The BIG THREE have won numerous JD POWER QUALITY AWARDS and some PLANTS IN CANADA have won those awards. I should know, I work at one of them. For years there was a huge difference between the US Dollar and Canadian Dollar and it was a big advantage for the Big Three to build cars in Canada. Plus health care costs, paid for by the company are far less than what they pay in USA. So you now know why they built plants in Canada.

What you have to realize is this, and think about this before you comment. 1000's of GM, Chrysler and Ford employees have lost their jobs and will lose their jobs in the near future. Those are high paying jobs, those are people who possibly buy the products your company produces. Those are the people that might take vacations and come to your city or town and spend money at local businesses, you might own one of those businesses. They are people who pay taxes in your city or towns, along with the companies they work for. Now if those plants close your town or city loses a huge chunk of their tax base.

If you do not think that is true then why have I read about cities complaining that Ford is closing a factory located within their tax payers base, and wondering how they can make up for that loss of taxes. Well the solution there is pretty simple, they'll just raise your taxes.

Even more support for my thoughts, why should I care how many Canadians and Mexicans have jobs while shopping for a car? If you feel strongly about the quality of their product, fight that battle. My biggest criticism of the big 3 is they rely on this entire "Buy American" motto, now that this no longer applies, it seems to be "Buy North American". Guess what, I am going to find what I feel to be the best product. If Ford builds an inferior product, which they do in my opinion. This based on owning and driving the product for over 20 years up until the early 90's, then maybe the people building this product do not deserver to have a job in the industry. It comes as no surprise to me they are hemorrhaging money as they are, they have never had a mindset for the long term. They should be evaluated on this as well. They made poor decisions, and made a lousy product for years and relied on American sympathy to sell this product. Had they done things differently in the 80's, they would have undercut the foreign market

I think these "High Paying Jobs" you mention is a big part of the problem. I worked a good part of the first part of my life around minimum wage without any benefits to speak of. Maybe the people holding these high paying jobs should realize they are not going to get handouts and if they cannot put out the product to make the sales, then they can fall back on the jobs that I carried in my early life. As in my life, if I do a lousy job, I fully expect to be fired. Maybe they should reevaluate if they are really deserving of that kind of money based on company sales and product quality, this principle always worked well for me.

Originally Posted by Golfbum

There, you have some good points to consider. Sure Toyota and Honda build cars in USA and Canada. But the majority of their vehicles are imported. Tarriffs on those vehicles are low when you compare the tarriffs on North American built vehicles going to Japan. Again, I know this, I work in the Auto Industry.

By the way, Ford was established in CANADA long before any of us were born, so you can blame Henry for that one.

Then I guess I have no problem with him going back to Canada, just tell him not to expect me to ever buy his product again because it is "American Made" Personally I am not the one that really cares if it is made in Canada, or made in the USA. I really could care less as long as they provide me a good product at a reasonable price. Much more important to me than where it is assembled. I guess it is just a plus that the last 5 were assembled in the USA and Canada.

Originally Posted by Golfbum

Do you honestly think that Asian vehicles are built any different than ones being built by the Big Three? If so then you need to realize they are not. Their assembly lines and assembly processes are the same as ours. Only their employees do not have health benefits and good wages. Asian auto workers are paid far less and have far less buying power than we do.
I will admit that years ago the quality lacked in North American products. However that has changed. A properly maintained North American vehicle is just as good as an Asian vehicle.

Not sure what the heck you are talking about here, it now sounds like you are admitting that these cars are infact American made? So why would I treat them differently than the big 3. What I do know is that the last Fords I bought where not built in the USA but Mexico. I have since bought 5 foreign vehicles (Subaru, Isuzu, BMW, Hyundai, Honda). The first 4 were assembled in the USA, the last in Canada. So if they do not have the same assembly lines it is likely because they are American, so if their employees do not have benefit and good wages, I guess I can at least say they were Assembled in America and stand behind the US policy for wages and benefits. Again, if you have lousy wages and bad benefits, then move onto better if you think you can. Don't expect to be "High Paid", and benefits just because you are part of the Big 3. That has been a big part of the problem for years. Again, what they did back in the 80's when they dug themselves this hole. Everyone within the companies profited, now they are paying the price.

In this time frame I also owned a Geo, which was not a bad car, probably the best American model I owned, outside of the fact that the rear needed replacing after 20k and some cosmetic issues with the paint, and the fact that the engine was too small for highway driver. Really likely the best American car I ever owned, going back to a model from 1971.

All I know is I maintain all of my vehicles the same, and am yet to find one from the Big 3 that stands up to any of the last 5, well, with exception to the BMW which we will not buy again either, but it was still likely better than any Ford I owned. Again seems like you want to blame the owner for quality issues or any flaw with a car. Kinda like I treat a foreign car like a baby and a Big 3 car like a bastard child.

Actually, I honestly believe I treat the foreign models worse, as I am no longer of the mindset that I need to pamper it left and right just to keep it on the road.

Originally Posted by Golfbum

As for the Expedition that needs $3000 in repairs every year, sorry but I find that hard to swallow. I have owned FORD vehicles since 1980 and I have had one warranty issue and that was back in 1981. 27 years of driving Ford products and I have one ONE WARRANTY ISSUE. Seems like a damn good track record to me.

This wasn't my comment, but the last Ford I owned was from the 80's, and I would say you are a lucky sole. The last I owned broke down 6 times in a short period of time, I was told by two different Ford dealerships that "It was probably time for a new car, because you should not expect one to last more than 80,000 miles." Which at the time it had 81,000 miles. I agreed and that marked the end of buy Ford for me. As at the time most warranties ran 100k miles. My father bought them all his life up until about 10-12 years ago, at which point he got tired of the cars always breaking down. He still buys from US Companies, but will never buy Ford again. Myself, I will never buy from the Big 3 again.

[warbirdlover]

It's simple. People will buy the highest quality cars for their money. If you aren't making them you aren't selling them. Period. (And just "saying" Quality 1) doesn't make it so. You have to install it).

And I respect everyone else's opinions on this sensitive subject and you should respect mine.

[Bravo]

Golfbum:

I think you need to realize we are not in a North American economy but a World economy. And every company has to be competitive in the world as a whole, not just within a country or continent.

I know you have worked for Ford for a long time and I am sure it saddens you to see the company continue to slide. It's their own fault. American manufacturers have "made their bed and now they have to lie in it". Designs and product quality that have been consistently passed by Asian and European manufacturers for decades have caused their slide, nothing else. Poor management at the top. Period.

I am all for jobs within the U.S. and Canada. And speaking of that, Alabama has a 2.9% unemployment rate right now. Article after article in the paper about companies here begging for people to come to work.

Why?

There are 50,000 people in this state working in the same job you have worked in for so long...and 98% of them are working for Asian and European-based companies....Toyota, Mercedes Benz, Honda, Hyundai and all of their suppliers. Just last week, Izuzu announced a new 1000-job truck plant to come online here in the next year.

So when you talk about automotive jobs, I see firsthand the effect it has on a local economy. The design quality and reliability of vehicles produced by these companies are blowing away Ford, GM and Chrysler.

Our little company has several "company cars" that are provided to employees for their usage. A 2004 Chevrolet Impala had problems like doorhandles coming off...A doorhandle failed! The struts that held up the trunk failed...the transmission used a quart of oil every three tanks of gas.

It was a pile of junk.

So now we buy Toyotas as company cars...Camry's, Highlander, etc. Yes they cost more to buy but they hold their value so much better that the Total Cost of Ownership (which is calculated only after you have sold the vehicle) is so much lower.

We had a 2002 Highlander that we bought for $23,000. Drove it for four years and sold it with 62,000 miles on it for $14,000. Total cost of ownership over four years: $9000! Compare that to the Chevy's that were worth nothing.

We had a Ford Windstar van that needed $2000 in transmission work after it had 120,000 miles on it.

I could go on and on.

As an American, I am sorry about Ford, GM and Chrysler.

But also as an American, I don't buy their stuff anymore. Nada. I own a Toyota and a Nissan. I am also a world citizen too...

[Slingblade61]

Wait a minute....Chrysler rocks! They are the only "American" / German car company worth a shit....good looking products (mostly) and reliable.

I read somewhere that the big 3 pay on average $75 per hour to employees (wages and benefits) while the foreign companies manufacturing in the US pay $47.

The benefit packages are what really kill the domestic car market. I cannot fault the unions for getting the best deal possible but.....look at the results.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Bravo

We had a 2002 Highlander that we bought for $23,000. Drove it for four years and sold it with 62,000 miles on it for $14,000. Total cost of ownership over four years: $9000! Compare that to the Chevy's that were worth nothing.

This was something that actually came as a great shock to me in the last year. My 1999 Isuzu Trooper which I really intended to keep forever, as much as I liked it and as little as I now driver, was Totaled early in the year.

It was a 1999 that we bought new for around $26-27k after all costs (so around $25k on the car), and after 7 years and almost 100k miles, they gave us over $9,000 for the car. It actually dumbfounded me that I drove a car for more years than any car I had ever owned and got 1/3 of the original cost. We preceded to pay off the 2003 Hyundai Santa Fe with 1/2 of the money and buy the Honda for my wife, who still puts a ton of miles on her car. Allowing us to still have only one payment

I believe I got around $1,500 for the Geo Tracker which had 90k and was 6 years old (it was a 3rd car while we had the BMW). Actually the design for the Tracker was by Suzuki, which I forgot about until now. I distinctly remember when shopping for the car, the same model Suzuki Sidekick was priced roughly $2k more. Again, for the identical car with a different name, and likely assembled in different locations? Outside of that I had multiple Fords that I traded in, only one with more than 100k miles. The most I ever got on a trade in was literally $250 for a $12-14k car. I had an old LTD I almost had to pay to have hauled away, I say old but I looking back I only put 119k miles on the car. Even going back to a Pinto which I had to give away. The Subaru Brought back about $3000 on a $14k car after around 130k miles and 5-6 years. The BMW brought back $13k on a $30k car, although it had only had about 80k miles and was only 4 years old.

This is likely a big part of what changed my mindset, knowing I had a $27-30k car that I could drive for what was considered the life of a prior owned car, and in the end it really only cost me about $16-17K. I think the trade in value says alot for the accepted quality as well.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Slingblade61

Wait a minute....Chrysler rocks! They are the only "American" / German car company worth a shit....good looking products (mostly) and reliable.

I read somewhere that the big 3 pay on average $75 per hour to employees (wages and benefits) while the foreign companies manufacturing in the US pay $47.

The benefit packages are what really kill the domestic car market. I cannot fault the unions for getting the best deal possible but.....look at the results.

Great Point!!! I wish the Big3 well, but it will not be at my expense. In the same sense I have lost jobs in the past because of possible poor decisions that I profited from prior and were beyond my immediate control simply because the company allowed it to go on for too long. Some of which were replaced by foreign competition, one of which was a result of being bought out by foreign competition to establish a bigger base in the US. I certainly will not fault that competition, I actually see they made smart, educated decisions that were responsible for the outcome. That is business. I further realized I could make that same money elsewhere, had I not been able to, maybe it was time to evaluate it that properly reflected my actual worth, or be happy I benefited for as long as I did.

I think this is a big part of what we are about, and the foundation and success of our nation. Goes back to the statement of Ford being established in Canada, why should I treat his company any different than one established oversees or outside of this country as he did, realize the profit potential on moving their product and process to this area. Certainly not simply because he was here longer?