Seve - Thoughts?

[IrishGolfer]

"I used the same driver, 3 wood, sand wedge, putter and clothes as I did 9 years ago".
Seve Ballesteros commenting on his win at The Open at Lytham St Annes in 1988.

What sort of irresposnsible statement is this to the regular Club Ho! I mean if he'd changed his clubs every 10 mins. he probably would have won a lot more Majors, right?

I am currently reading Natural Golf by Seve (again!!) and there are lots of pearls of wisdom within the pages. I guess when his swing went South, that's when he turned to the Ho strategy.

Something for us all to think about I guess.

btw I hope he changed his shorts!!

[ualtim]

Originally Posted by IrishGolfer

I guess when his swing went South, that's when he turned to the Ho strategy.

My swing has never been "north" so I am using that as an excuse.

Things have changed a bit in the past 20 years. When persimmon and blades ruled the world, there were no major changes year to year in equipment. Most pro's kept the same irons until they wore the face out and then went out and got the latest model blade from the same company. Woods lasted forever unless they broke or got left out in the rain. Today, some pro's are changing out there wedges (according to GD) evry 3 to 4 months from wear and are into new drivers just about annually. Technology changes year to year and sometimes even faster within a calander year. With the possible expception of some fairway woods and putters, I believe most of the pros today are constantly searching for the next greatest club.

[IrishGolfer]

Hey Tim

I'd agree, but my point is that I guess most amateurs turn to new equipment for answers instead of learning to play the shots with existing tools.

Seve bangs on about learning to play golf with a 3 iron, hitting lob shots with it. It took him years of self learning and practice to develop to that level. Most of us don't have that time or inclination, so we try and buy a game.

I agree about the modern aspects of the game and the wealth of new technology and equipment out there. So many reps trying to get Pros to try their equipment, the search for perfection.

But...

...I'll bet if I stuck to one set this season and spend the Ho money in lessons and the appropriate amount of time practising that my game would improve 100%.

Imagine not having to worry about a <1% differential in flex, or 1 degree in bounce. Only having to think about technique and conditions. That assumes that the clubs are correct in the first place and properly fitted!!).

[limpalong]

As the other poster pointed out, you must consider the year... 1988. The only metal woods out there were Taylor Made's and the heads were tiny. No real advantage, in that day, to metal woods over persimmon/laminated. Armour was just entering the cast/perimeter weighted market with their soon to be quite successful 845's. But, the only other cast club out there was Ping. The blades of that era were uniquely similar. MacGregor (then mostly owned by Nicklaus, a Seve competitor), Hogan, Wilson... Titleist was not a known club brand at the retail level. They were giving the forged Tour Model's and the huge black and white vinyl bags to every green grass pro out there. But that was marketing to get ball sales. The choices were not many and both pros and amateurs played the same clubs as long as those clubs would last... which could be a lifetime.

Were these players "better players" because they learned to use their clubs differently... with more shot innovation... than today's 'ho' style golfer? Not necessarily. Pros of that era and pros of today are blessed with abilities most of us will only dream about. My old fat behind will never dunk a basketball. And, this old worn out body could never dream of shooting even par with persimmon woods and Hogan Redlines. As a weekend hacker, I have been close to even par thanks to what technology has gifted me with over these past 20 years.

Does that endorse simply "go buy a better game"? Certainly not! Harvey Pennick reminded us that when ill, the doctor would prescribe a couple of aspirins... not the entire bottle. Likewise, we must learn to make wise decisions as to blending technology where it will assist with a commitment to learn to work with the tools in our bag.

I carry "old" technology irons in the Eye 2+'s. But, I've found the modern perimeter weighting isn't much improved over yesterday's. (My opinion!) Yet, you will find much more modern driver and fairways in the bag. That is where I can make up strokes with the new technology. That is the decision I've made. Everyone must decide what bag make-up best fits their game.

Seve gave us so much to learn from his game. He was so good from trouble. He used his irons as scalpels and carved a career out of managing his game and his clubs. His gamesmanship was remarkable for that era. Some felt he went over the line with his attitude and demeanor during matches. He simply did what was required to win! If we, today, could learn the blend between technology and talent we, too, could be much better golfers.

[dave.]

Yep,between 79 and 88 not much happened,Big Berthas were born and Ping Eyes took off,but no real change for the top players,so its not much of a statement tbh.

Seve was and still is a genius,his short game vhs is an inspiration for those that hate the sterile teachings of Pelz for one.

As for his swing,its his back that caused the problem.

[ualtim]

Originally Posted by IrishGolfer

Hey Tim

I'd agree, but my point is that I guess most amateurs turn to new equipment for answers instead of learning to play the shots with existing tools.

But...

...I'll bet if I stuck to one set this season and spend the Ho money in lessons and the appropriate amount of time practising that my game would improve 100%..

I agree with you IG. I know that if I spent more time practicing I could lower my index. During certain times of the year when I can break away to the range more often and play more often my index drops. When I do not get to the range or out on the course often, my index rises.

I changed my irons for the first time in 3 years last month as I was not practicing enough to maintain proficiency with them. I went into a set of ultra forgiving irons that essentially allow me to hit the ball consistantly without spending all of the practice time required to stay proficient with my old irons. I want to spend more time practicing my game, but the guy who signs my paycheck likes me to show up on a regular basis and the spousal unit has a list of things she prefer that I would do ahead of heading off to the range.

Drivers and putters. Guilty as charged. I have half a bag full of them now. My gamers do not change often, but I am always trying other ones out to see if I can get more out of the latest technology. I am a sucker for good deals. If I can get a component on the cheap or a run into a deal like I did with my TEE I can not refuse. I guess I am like most women are with shoes. We just can not turn down a good deal even if we already have 5 of them just like it at home.

[artfulgolfer]

I'm totally convinced you can't "buy" a better game - through lessons or technology. Sure, you might hit some balls further or straighter, but you'll still screw up just as many shots if you don't improve your mental game. I've watched so many golfers takes lesson after lesson and buy driver after driver and never get better.

I'm doing my own little experiment to see if I can get down to a 2 or 3 index with most of the used clubs I started with when I took up golf 2 years ago. I have 12 year old ping zing2 irons, 7 or 8 year old Orlimar woods, and 1 old old-ball wedge. The only new clubs I bought are a driver, hybrid, and putter. I never buy balls and use what I find or get for free in tournaments. I've succeeded in reducing my index so far from 16 to 4, working entirely on attitude, visualization and concentration. No lessons, No ho-ing If you can really play golf, you can shoot a good score with just about any clubs.

[Rockford35]

Have a look at the "average golfer's score thread".

In there, it's been noted that the average score of a golfer is 100 and has been for 60 years.

Technology might help you hit the ball straighter and longer, but it doesn't help with course managment and putting.

R35

[dave.]

Lol at 'only the driver,hybrid and putter'.That will hardly be conclusive when you consider the 2 most important clubs are driver and putter.If you use an old driver and putter then fair enough,but if not your test will be fatally flawed.Think about,you say you don't believe you can buy yourself to lower scores yet you have done exactly that,that Nike driver is 60 yards longer than the top persimmon of its day and a brand new putter has technology in it the pros of yesteryear would have died for.

So play a bullseye and a persimmon driver and they come back

[JEFF4i]

He's a professional, so he's doing something right.

Not my style, but I can't judge his.

[artfulgolfer]

Originally Posted by dave.

Lol at 'only the driver,hybrid and putter'.That will hardly be conclusive when you consider the 2 most important clubs are driver and putter.... So play a bullseye and a persimmon driver and then come back.

The original post asks if "Seve Ballesteros" would have won more if he'd bought equipment newer than 9 years old. This thread has nothing to do with comparing today's 460cc driver technology w/ persimmon drivers.

Regarding my driver and putter, I'm hitting the ball the same distance and hitting the same number of fairways w/ my 460cc Nike driver as I did with my old 180cc Orlimar driver and my average number of putts has remained unchanged since changing from my old Ping Anser blade to Taylor Made mallet (I suck with both). New technology hasn't made a difference.

I upgraded my 3-iron, driver and putter for the very purpose of seeing if it would have any effect on my score or stats. They didn't. In fact, I'm pretty sure I could maintain my index using "a bullseye and a persimmon driver".

But you're right, my test will never be conclusive My point is simply that my improvement has come entirely from better course management, better concentration, and a better attitude... and practice. I'm just of the opinion that you can't "buy" a better game.

[cypressperch]

only been playing golf for two years, you have done amazingly well to get down to an index of four. Almost unbelievably well, but I have seen such progress a couple of times in the fifty years I have been involved with golf.

But eventually, even those who make amazing progress early on will hit the LAW OF DIMINISHING RETURNS which really kicks in with th sport of golf. Your exploring the mental aspects of golf is the goldmine that many over look, and improvement there will indeed improve your game.

Playing numerous courses as you have been doing is excellent for developing course management. It will give one far more opportunity to develop and apply different shot shapes which also can bring one's scores down. (I suppose playing the same course over and over will get one so experienced at that course that the scores can get pretty low, but who wants to be able to score well on just one course? OK, so some would like to play well on any course, but would it not be nice to have a game that can be taken anywhere and the results be good?).

I am going to disagree with you on clubs, however. There is a set of clubs out there somewhere that is best suited for each golfer. Admittedly, some of this may be psychological and involves one's confidence. I cannot play Ping irons, for example, because when I look at them, all I can think of is Gumbie! Warbird does not have this rare ailment, and likes using Ping equipment. There is no "one size fits all" in golf equipment. Things like lie angle, shaft flex, head size and loft, grip size and feel, etc, etc, etc--All of these things make for large differences in clubs. You cannot just pick up some clubs and expect them to be what is best for you. The odds are extremely high against this.

Good instruction can get one a big improvement in a hurry, especially when it is acquired as soon as one starts playing golf. It is much slower, but making a video of your swing and studying it yourself works better than having a poor instructor, especially if you have learned enough about what is in a good swing. This also will require some money.

You certainly have found things that work well for yourself. I congratulate you on an amazing first two years! Keep up the great work, and let us know some of your secrets.

Sincerely, Cypressperch

[artfulgolfer]

Thanks cypressperch, you bring up very good points about club preference, proper fitting and lessons.

I didn't intend to minimize the importance of club selection. But once you purchase clubs with proper lie angle, shaft flex, feel, etc., those clubs should serve your needs for a number of years. Just because a new "square" driver or "three-ball" putter comes out a year later doesn't mean it will improve your score. Saving your money for green fees might be better investment.

I totally agree with you about the value of good instruction when you begin playing. It's not entirely fair to say I've never taken lessons, when so many golfers I've played with (who have had lessons) freely give me good advice and tips. Instead of learning these important techniques gradually from others and from self-coaching, I may have benefited even more from some good instruction up front. Also, although I just started playing on a regular basis 2 years ago, I've tried taking up golf a few other times, but never lasted more than a few months due to lack of time and/or money.

However, I was referring more to the established players who I've witnessed becoming dependent on instructors to fix this or fix that, instead of learning to figure it out on their own. Although I sometimes see them improve for a short time, they always seem to revert to their old scores.

Lastly, I'm totally finding out that you are right about the law of diminishing returns. For now, I've hit a wall at 4. Although I still think I can eventually get down a hair more, it's a lot harder to cut 4 in half than it was to cut 16 in half! Effective practice and an improved mental game really helps get the fluff out of your game, but it's quite a challenge to keep that level of focus for 18 holes and get even lower. Obviously, at some point, you can't keep getting better anyway... Most importantly, I'm trying to keep having fun and keep learning.

[Sandpiper3]

Artfulgolfer, believe me when i say this, keep reading that mental stuff, and videos do help a ton. Ive played this game (well, technically since i was like 7, but just hacking at balls on the range with my pop) for 4 years, and i went in year succession handicapwise year1 ended around 16-17, then 10, then 6, now im at a 1 going into this coming season. 6 to 1 in one year was UNBELIEVABLY tough, my goal was to get to a 3 at the highest, i didnt think i had a chance to get to 1.

I only started getting lessons in the middle of this past summer, and i got down to a 3 on my own. Ive been in touch with a mental coach in florida, which helped a ton, but i think there comes to a point where your guna have a to find a really good pro to get down below 2 (lucky for me i believe so far ive found that pro). I started playing on Ping Karsten I's, very nice clubs, but i only had a partial set unfortunately, then i got handmedown wilson staffs (a very good set, still have them). Didnt start the big ho'ing really until this year and wasnt even allowed getting new clubs until i was below a 4 (parents "idea" of once id be taking the game seriously enough to invest all the $$ into it).

I firmly believe in clubs dont make the player, but they help, and by no means is a club guna get into my bag just because its sweet new thing out there, ill admit ive started takin up on STS, but it takes an unbelievably perfect something to get into my game bag, only thing that has changed over the winter has been the shafts in my driver and 3w, even though ive picked up some other stuff

People underestimate how much REALLY good info is out at the touch of our fingertips, but they get overwhealmed because they just cant figure out which parts are good/bad for their own swing. Once you figure these out, and subscribe to say 2-3 mental newslettres (im subscribed to 5), youll be getting all the info you need weekly in your inbox.

[dave.]

Artful,I totally agree;

"But you're right, my test will never be conclusive My point is simply that my improvement has come entirely from better course management, better concentration, and a better attitude... and practice. I'm just of the opinion that you can't "buy" a better game."


But you can buy distance with a new driver,thats the point I was making.You did say you will be trying to prove a point (I never mentioned Seve,just replying to your little challenge you set yourself).Drivers move on incredibly over 9 years,and same for putters to a certain degree,there are so many options to choose from nowadays.You are buying yourself all the main gains that technology can bring,this doesn't work anywhere near as much with irons and not at all to a degree with wedges,so as I say it would be impressive for me if you kept the same driver you used when you started,then that would definatelyprove a big point and I applaud you for trying.