I Require Assistance from the ShotTalk Instructors...

[Mors Ab Alto]

... or anyone else who may have a clue.

I have been hitting the ball well lately with my irons, but have noticed that the majority of my misses have started going left, and that I tend to have turf only on the toe of my club. I know my swing plane is a little flatter than most, but could this mean that I need to change the lie angle of my irons?

I tend to choke down on all of my clubs, but especially my driver/hybrids, and I was told that this effectively flattens the lie angle. I thought I just hit them better because shortening the club made them easier to control. Could I need to adjust my lie angle?

Help, as I plan on goin' hoin' for new sticks in the near future, and need to know if getting fitted would tell me something you guys can't. I probably trust you all more than I would some club mongerer. Thanks.

[LyleG]

If you are making contact toe first with your irons then the lie angles are to flat at the moment and would need to be bent upright. You need to hit some balls off of a lie board to properly tell if and how much they will need to be bent.

[ualtim]

Originally Posted by LyleG

If you are making contact toe first with your irons then the lie angles are to flat at the moment and would need to be bent upright. You need to hit some balls off of a lie board to properly tell if and how much they will need to be bent.

Thats what I was thinking, but isn't the ball flight from irons that are too flat a miss to the right for a right hander? Or is he like you and playing from the other side?

[dave.]

Originally Posted by ualtim

Thats what I was thinking, but isn't the ball flight from irons that are too flat a miss to the right for a right hander? Or is he like you and playing from the other side?

No,being to flat means the heel digs in and the toe gets whipped around,hence the grass on the toe and the shot going left.I will bet the shots are low and left to boot.Choking down does indeed flatten the lie and with a flat swing this just exaggerates the problem.

I think its safe to advise a trip to a fitting centre

[LyleG]

No, if your lie angles are too flat the toe will dig in.
Too upright, the heel digs in.

By choking up he is becoming more upright, thus making his clubs lie angle too flat. This will lift the heel of the club up causing the toe to dig in first. This will usually leave the face open a touch.

[ualtim]

Originally Posted by LyleG

No, if your lie angles are too flat the toe will dig in.
Too upright, the heel digs in.

Thats what I was thinking. But with the toe digging in, wouldn't your ball flight be off to the right for a right hander?

[LyleG]

should be, but, it doesnt always work that way.

With some people shortening a club or choking down causes them to come ott, or pull/hook shots. I am not sure why this happens, but I am one of them it happens to. When I hit a 44 inch driver I make slightly better center face contact, but pull and hook a ton of shots. At 45 3/4 I dont pull or hook anything. This is what it sounds like is happening to him. It sounds to me a like a full fledge fitting is required prior to any lie adjustment.

[ualtim]

Originally Posted by LyleG

should be, but, it doesnt always work that way.

With some people shortening a club or choking down causes them to come ott, or pull/hook shots. I am not sure why this happens, but I am one of them it happens to. When I hit a 44 inch driver I make slightly better center face contact, but pull and hook a ton of shots. At 45 3/4 I dont pull or hook anything. This is what it sounds like is happening to him. It sounds to me a like a full fledge fitting is required prior to any lie adjustment.

Interesting. Going to a longer shaft to straighten out your shots. When you wrist to floor, do you come up in the standard length category or are you naturally an over standard length category?

I learn new things every day here.

[Rockford35]

Look at it this way.

If you're 5'6" and you use a 45" driver, the lie angle is going to pull the toe off the ground, causing you to hook the snot out of the ball. If you're 6'5" and use a standard lie driver, you're gonna push everything as it's too upright.

A shorter driver will obviously help the shorter player, but not if the lie angle is wrong. Same goes for a big dude. So "standard" length doesn't really mean shit.

R35

[LyleG]

Driver isnt as important for lie imo because the club doesnt actually hit the ground (or at least it shouldnt) so the lie shouldnt matter. The length plays a factor because it affects the plane of which the player swings the club. With a longer club I am finding I tend to stay on plan better.
My wrist to floor is 32.5 inches, very standard for men at 5'11. Wrist to floor is simply a starting point however. Nothing beats old fashion testing to see what really works best.

[Eracer]

Originally Posted by LyleG

No, if your lie angles are too flat the toe will dig in.
Too upright, the heel digs in.

By choking up he is becoming more upright, thus making his clubs lie angle too flat. This will lift the heel of the club up causing the toe to dig in first. This will usually leave the face open a touch.

That's what I've always heard as well. A lie that's too flat means the toe digs, and opens the face, sending the ball right. I wonder if there's not some unconscious compensation going on, i.e., he's coming down hard with the hands trying to prevent the slice and just pulling the ball.

But if he has a SWING that is too flat for his clubs, then the heel would be digging in. I think that's what Dave was saying.

Either way, a lie board will tell the tale.

[Rockford35]

Except with a properly executed shot, the clubface meets the ball BEFORE impacting the ground, so the idea being and iron or a wood is irrelevant.

But I agree, testing is the best medicine.

I have a friend that is 6'1" and he plays 1" over standard clubs, carries his hands so low that the toe points at least 1/2" off the ground, and plays the prettiest draw you've ever seen. Too bad he can't putt worth a shit.

R35

[Poe4soul]

With the shorter clubs you don't to dig anything into the ground for lie angle to affect your shot. To illustrate pick the club up in front off you parallel to the ground; the face is no longer pointed at the target. The higher the loft the more this is exaggerated. Granted digging the club into the ground with the toe or heel will also has effect on the face angle at impact but this is not the only effect caused by bad lie angle especially with the short clubs.

[LyleG]

huh?

If the club does not strike the ground the lie angle will have no bearing what so ever.

[ualtim]

Originally Posted by LyleG

huh?

If the club does not strike the ground the lie angle will have no bearing what so ever.

I would agree with Poe4soul on this one. Even if your club does not touch the ground, your lie angle will affect your ball flight. Golfsmith used to sell a magnet with a pole sticking out of it for about 6 inches or so to demonstrate this phenomena (link to a similar device here.) The the club sole is parallel to the earth, the pole will point toward the target. As you raise the toe on the club, the pole starts to point further left of the target. As you raise the heel, the pole starts to point to the right of the target. The effect is more dramatic on higher lofted clubs such as wedges and less prevelent on lower lofted clubs such as hybrids and fairway woods. At impact, if your toe or heel is raised due to poor lie angle the ball will travel off line as described even if you contact the ball before the earth.