Ball position

[LyleG]

I had a moment of clarity last night. One of those rare times where you just stand up and say F-it, if it aint broke, I aint fixin it.

I play the ball back in my stance with my irons. My 3 iron starts in the middle and every following club progresses back a bit. I play my PW just inside my back foot. I have tried for nearly three years to fix this, to try and play the ball in a more normal position. The results have been regression instead of progression. The minute I put the ball back again, I hit it solid with a nice soft draw.
This had me thinking about a few things, number one being the bottom of my swing. With my natural swing the bottom of my arc is dead middle of stance and moves backs as bend over more with the shorter clubs. Thats when it dawned on me. You cant fix this problem because it isnt a problem. It is what it is. This is the spot your club hits the turf, so logically its the best spot for the ball to be . Seems pretty obvious.
So in short I am done reading tips, done with drills that try to change what is natural. I am doing what feels right and produces the best results for me.
It might not be text book, but it works.

[ezra76]

You know it's against the rules to move the ball?


I find the same thing, especially when I'm hitting off a tee or not striking particularly well. I play the ball back. When I'm striking well, then I can start playing it wherever I want to change trajectories.

You know, it's similar to me and my stupid swing. Every time I turn on the GC or even on here.... there are like 10guys on tour and 20guys ever in history that most people would agree have a "good" swing. Everyone else has a bunch of flaws but put together something that works... 99% of the time. I recall at the end of the year I had some conflicting threads going on. I'm complaining I can't draw the ball, I can only hit fades with whatever TP driver I had. Then in another thread I'm gloating about back to back 77's and holing an eagle. I'm done fighting what's working.

[dave.]

Yep,agreed

Hogan hit a fade off a closed stance,worked for him

I am little more forward than that,as long as my hands are ahead of the ball I have never really worked on ball position apart from wedges

[AaA]

I'm with you, Lyle. I can play my long irons a little ahead of middle, but I think I'm more consistent when the ball is in the middle of my stance. I don't think ball position matters at all (unless like Ezra mentioned you want to change trajectory). If you strike it well and you can control it and it works, then that's your game. Textbook rules are a guideline that can put one on the right track. It's up to the individual to find what works for them best.

[demon]

I play the shot according to the flight I want the ball to take. If I am going to hit a normal trajectory shot I play everything just over to the left of center except for driver, 3 wood, and 2 iron. Wedges I tend to play farther back since I hit everything so high. I also play farther back if I am between clubs.

[ezra76]

I guess the reason I joke about "ball position" is it is just, not sure what term to use here, a small part of something much larger maybe.

The real thing to look at is the steepness/shallowness of the swing, face positon at impact... and I don't just mean open and shut, I mean lofted and/or delofted. Why do I play a fade to an elevated green? I can open the face more, increase loft and bring the shot in on a higher trajectory from further back in my stance and use backspin/sidespin to stop it. If I hit from a square stance, same ball position, it will tend to produce a lower straight or slight draw.
Same thing goes with taking spin off. I'll play a PW from about a 3W spot and let it run up from the front to the back of a sloped green. The "ball position" is just a byproduct of what is necessary to hit a PW that I am not fully compressing, catching just before the point I may catch it fat and trying not to put any backspin on it.

What is a "stinger"? I have my version of one that I hit with my 3i off the tee. To me it is a shot that is played slightly forward of normal postion, in my case to produce a slightly flatter plane as well, reach for it a little. The purpose is to hit a lower, very little spin shot that will hit the ground at 180-190 and run. Ball position is just a byproduct of the shot being attempted. Anyone who steps up and just says "I'm going to hit this one up the middle". Wow, it could just never be that simple and easy for me.

[Rockford35]

I was reading an article in the latest issue of Canadian Golfer, where one teaching pro had a breakthru (in his eyes) idea of having the ball in once place in your stance for all shots. It makes sense, considering then you should theoretically have one swing. If it's back, a decending blow, if it's forward, a sweep. It would be different for each player, whatever they are most comfortable with.

Now, I went out and tried this. I dunno about you, but putting a 3 iron off my right foot like my wedge results in wormburning idiot shots. I really don't get this train of thought. Middle of your stance for a driver? Huh?

I'm with you Lyle. I play my shots from basically a 5" patch on the ground, long irons forward and shorter to the rear. Depending on the shot required (higher, lower, check) i move the ball ahead or back 1" to achieve this and it seems to work just fine.

It is interesting to examine all the schools of thought tho.

R35

[dave.]

Tiger only ever adjusts one ball forward,one ball back,to allow for flight and shape.A stinger is a hold off one ball back,simple as that.Except you need weapons grade talent and enormous strength.I have both both but still can't hit it.

[ezra76]

Funny, after reading that Rock I tend to wonder how much it has to with thought process. I am more non-mechanical, fluid-like, with my thoughts on swinging and hitting the ball. I don't do the samething every time nor do I try to.

This may have something to do with the old left brain-right brain thing I suppose. I'd be willing to bet you are very good a math and physical science. Probably Lyle is too. I failed Algebra 4 times but excelled in English and biological science.

How did I get here from ball positon? Oh yeah, mechanical thought process... If I play it back, this happens. I have to inquire as to why that happens when I play it back...

[LyleG]

The reason I brought this up was because of an artical I was reading in Golf magazine a while back that stated most pro's play their irons a lot more forward in their stance than amateurs. The artical also stated that most pro's play their driver off their front foot. The funny thing to me was that every time I see the fold out they have of a players shot sequence this just doesnt seem to be the case. Sergio playing his 5 iron in the center of his stance, DiMarco with his 5 in the center, both even slightly behind center. Then I see Adam Scott with his driver well behind his front foot, same for Annika, and a few other I looked back at. The biggest light bulb went off reading a blurb by long drive champ Jason Zuback. He said in the artical that he plays the balls ahead of his front foot with his driver. Yet all the straight on pictures showed this was clearly not the case, it only appeared that way to him because of the angle we approach the ball from. This had me re-evaluate my own ball position.

So off to the dome I went.

Once I started tinkering again and paying attention to my own swing plane and the bottom of its arc I was hitting shots as crisp as hell. Click, click, click, one after another. The ball appeared to be very far back in my stance. The interesting part about this occured when i got home and set up infront of mirror, (I also took a few pics). My ball position was pretty much the middle of my stance with long irons and went further back with the shorties. What appeared to be even with my back foot was actually still a fair bit in front of it. So even though I play the ball back it wasnt as far back as I thought. It was simply my perception being off when looking down at the ball. I tried this with my wife as well (what a patient girl). I told her to put the ball in the middle of her stance. Every time she set up with it a few inches forward of that point. When I placed in the middle she looked at me like I was a nut (I see this look a lot).
So now I just do what feels right and trust it.
Moving the ball and inch in either direction can vary the height if need be, nothing drastic. Its amazing the differance an inch can make.

My ball striking is the best and most consistant it has ever been, yet I was hell bent of fixing it, making it more conventional. When in reality printed conventionality and on course conventionality seem to be too very differant things.

[LyleG]

Originally Posted by ezra76

I'd be willing to bet you are very good a math and physical science. Probably Lyle is too. I failed Algebra 4 times but excelled in English and biological science.

Ez,

Are you my long lost brother?

I sucked at math and physics, dropped out of both. I loved english and reading, and took advanced biology right into university until family issues forced me to leave.

[warbirdlover]

I do it the same way as you Lyle...

This may have something to do with the old left brain-right brain thing I suppose. I'd be willing to bet you are very good a math and physical science. Probably Lyle is too. I failed Algebra 4 times but excelled in English and biological science.

Ezra76

Must be your "feminine" side coming out!!

[Rockford35]

I like this.

Now, would your stroke type play into the effects of this sort of ball placement? Like, you're a sweeper, you'd want to be at the bottom of your arc, just as you said Lyle.

But what about someone that crisps/hits down on the ball. One with a decending blow would have a harder time adapting to this philosphy I am guessing. Guys like Sergio and Dimarco aren't sweepers. Veej is and so is Davis and Annika. Daly definitely isn't, and I'm guessing Zuback isn't either. If you pelt like crazy, you're not a sweeper.

I wonder if this holds any water. I'm gonna give this a test at the sim next week. Sweep versus pick.

I like this.

R35

[dave.]

With a shot under 100 yards I think its very important to mess with ball position,amatuers fail to get the ball far enough back with wedges,yet with irons I thinks its less so

[LyleG]

Rock,

I take a nice divot with every shot. Less with long irons, a little bigger with the wedges.
I definately would consider myself a crisp downward blow hitter with my irons.