Compare:equipment v instruction

[Lemonhead]

Lyle,

According to your post, then I would say that 90% are hackers who are happy being hackers. Those aren't the ones I'm concerned about. If they want to spend their money on gear to be a better hacker, then more power to them. The ones who think that gear is going to make them a player rather than a hacker are the ones who aren't helping themselves.

As to Barkley, 100's of lessons and he still stinks and he knows he stinks and he knows he can't get it through his head about how to swing, then he also knows he is a hacker and is fine being a hacker.

I didn't mean to imply that you didn't question people who visit your shop. I was putting out a scenario in order to discuss the topic. Sorry if I implied something else.

Anyway, back to the fun at hand.

Dave, there are guys to can hit just about anything. I've heard Daly described as the best natural ball striker in the world. He could swing anything and make it work. When you think about it, that supports my contention that it ain't the gear, it's the user. He can hit a shaft because he likes the color. It's not like he won't be able to hit the ball with the wrong shaft, it's just that certain shafts function more in sync with his body.

When it comes to my argument, the Daly example is better than any hypothetical. I have never put forth that equipment makes NO difference, just that it's the athlete who makes the most difference and fixing the athlete will pay off more than fixing the equipment (Charles Barkley excluded, I think having a pinch hitter would be the only solution for him.)

Lemonhead

[artfulgolfer]

I think Lemonhead is making a valid point. As I've mentioned in another thread, I started playing regularly nearly 2 years ago at 46 years old. My index has dropped from 16 to 3.7 as of last Monday. What has helped me the most is learning to keep my mind centered on the target, preventing other thoughts from interfering, and not over-reacting to poor shots. Practice has been the next most important factor, especially my short game. Clubs and lessons have not been priorities for me. I bought used intermediate irons (that are 2-degrees flat), used woods, and a new driver and hybrid. I've since been fitted with 1-degree upright irons, but still use my flat ones. They work just fine. They hit the ball in the direction I intend. I've avoided lessons because I believe they make you think too much which interferes with my goal of quieting my mind so I can focus on where I'm trying to hit the ball - just like I'd do if I were pitching a baseball or shooting a basket. Standing in front of a mirror to work on my grip, stance and swing has been more than sufficient. I think many golfers make this game much harder than it is. As soon as they hit some bad shots or shoot a bad round, they think they need a lesson, when in fact, all they need to do is become more aware of their own swing, improve their concentration, and remember to have fun.... I realize club fitting and lessons are very valuable, but learning to coach yourself and hit any club is even more valuable.

p.s. I played with a guy quite a bit last year when we were both 9 handicaps. Since then, he's been taking individual on-course lessons (9 holes) with our local pro every week as well as weekly lessons on the range (he's got the time and money). He's a 12 now. I'm under 4.

[BStone]

Being somewhat biased as a teaching pro, I feel that there are certain circumstances when changing equipment will have a faster positive effect than I can have on someone. For example if their equipment is simply so far from what they should be playing, there is no way for me to teach them to get better results.

That being said, if the equipment is the proper fit for them, they would be much better served taking a course management lesson before getting the newest driver to hit the racks.

[Rockford35]

Being somewhat biased as a teaching pro, I feel that there are certain circumstances when changing equipment will have a faster positive effect than I can have on someone. For example if their equipment is simply so far from what they should be playing, there is no way for me to teach them to get better results.

That being said, if the equipment is the proper fit for them, they would be much better served taking a course management lesson before getting the newest driver to hit the racks.

This could very easily be the post of the year.

Well said.

R35

[artfulgolfer]

Being somewhat biased as a teaching pro, I feel that there are certain circumstances when changing equipment will have a faster positive effect than I can have on someone. For example if their equipment is simply so far from what they should be playing, there is no way for me to teach them to get better results.

That being said, if the equipment is the proper fit for them, they would be much better served taking a course management lesson before getting the newest driver to hit the racks.

Makes a lot of sense... I'm pretty sure I got lucky and ended up with clubs that fit me well enough. My pings are game improvement irons that I think anyone can hit (if you can stand to look down on them). Orlimar woods were popular once... average golf scores were just as good back then as they are now. The 2 clubs I think everyone should get are huge forgiving drivers and as many hybrids as they need to replace irons they don't hit well.

[dave.]

I am still not sure what point is being made anymore.I have said equipment can make a significant difference to a player if his/her current equipment is poorly suited.Lemonhead says this player should practice instead.I think he/she should do both.Play with the wrong equipment and you might as well not bothering to practice because its unlikely your improvements will last very long.

To bring this into perspective,neither myself nor Lyle mentioned practice at all,the thread was about lessons or gear.All that was stated was you should check your gear out to make sure its suited to your game BEFORE YOU TAKE A LESSON.This makes sense,because it will save the pro the time at the first lesson telling you go away and buy some new gear.No one said you shouldn't practice.This was introduced quite late on the thread and no one disputes the validity of solid practice.I should point out I got to scratch with persimmon and balata and had totally ill suited gear,standard loft and lie blades.Would I ignore modern equipment and the benefits of suited irons and woods now? Of course not,and nor would I stop having lessons and practicing.

Lyle's point was a simple one.Go and have your gear fitted and it will help your game.Thats it.Lemon seemed to be saying head for the practice tee first.We will have to disagree on that one.

[LyleG]

Lyle's point was a simple one.Go and have your gear fitted and it will help your game.Thats it.Lemon seemed to be saying head for the practice tee first.We will have to disagree on that one.

Exactly. I am a strong proponent of lessons and especially practice. My own practice routine would cause many guys elbows to explode by Wednesday of the first week.
I was simply saying that a large portion of the golfing public dont take lessons, and dont practice, and that they never will. For these people properly fit gear will make a world of difference.

[dave.]

And I just want to point out I am doing on average 13 hours a week practice plus 2 rounds,so I am hardly a anti-practice.

[Lemonhead]

Dave, Lyle,

I think we have beat this horse until it is well into the ground. Had fun. I think we just have different approachest to the same problem.

Lemonhead

[dave.]

I agree.

[charnockpro]

As the originator of the post, i am glad to see it sparked such debate, i think a balance of the two is good, what i do see is people trying to chase that extra 5 yards etc.. when an advert says it will produce the certain effect, i like to keep my bag up to date as much as anyone else but there is a limit and in my opinion the driver, sand/lob/approach wedge and putter are the three most important hinges to a good set. As well as a few good pointers from your PGA pro to keep you on the straight and narrow, PGA guys arent trying to re-invent the wheel just keep it on a straightish path!

[dave.]

Yeah,and I suppose another example would be a high handicapper with a low bounce sharp leading edge tour wedge.Should he learn to play it or buy another? (rhetorical)

[LyleG]

Yeah,and I suppose another example would be a high handicapper with a low bounce sharp leading edge tour wedge.Should he learn to play it or buy another? (rhetorical)

Dave, you bring up a great point with this question and I hear it all the time.

There are lot of people who define how good a player is by the type of equipment they use. They see a guy with blades with tiny little wear spots in the middle and X-stiff shafts and they think "PLAYER". Yet people dont look at the guy who has Ping G5's with graphite shafts in his bag with the same little wear spots as they same quality of player. Player 2 could be better even yet people will always be more mystified by player 1's bag.
Many people will argue that playing game improvement irons will hamper your progress as a player. They say you cant work work the ball with shovels, ect, ect. I have heard and seen it all before. As far as I am concerned, the middle of the club is the middle of the club, what works and feels right for one guy may be poison in the hands of another.
I have played both, the blade and the shovel. Both can be worked as long as the operator knows what they are doing. I have little wear spots on both as I am very good ball striker. The difference was on the days when I wasnt my best, a little correction here and there helps a lot. No one looks into my bag anymore with envy and admiration, but my scores have improved.
To me, the score is all that matters. I dont care what your swing looks like, I dont care what you play. All they are is a means to an end, the end being the number on the scorecard. If you can lower this through practice, through lessons, or through equipment it doesnt matter just as long as you can lower it.
So to sum up, play what works, learn in a way that works for you, whatever, just as long as it is actually working.

[kwcsports]

I play with 2 guys that have blades and hit them worse then the cavity backs they used 2 or 3 years ago. They carry them to look cool even though IMO it hurts their games. I used to bug them about it, but I gave up. I am content to continue to take their money with my ugly eye 2 shovels.

[dave.]

Gotta agree Lyle,its why I dropped the blades and went to the Ping i3s,juts a no brainer to be honest,I last played off 1 when using Mizuno blades,balata and persimmon.I just tried to turn the clock back and couldn't.I shot 72 on Monday,I reckon I am 3 shots a round better off at least