Rules question, cart runs over ball

[Eracer]

Here's a rules question. You ball lands in a deep (8 inches), grass-filled depression in the fairway (not marked GIR) and nestles down slightly. You drive over the ball without seeing it, pushing it down about 4 inches into the grass. Your cart companion sees you drive over the ball and tells you you have to "play it as it lays". You say, "no, the lie was influenced by an "outside influence" and you are allowed to place the ball.

Who's right? And why?

[warbirdlover]

I don't know but anyone who hits on me has there ball driven 4" into the ground by my cart....

"If the original lie of a ball has been altered (by you or a playing partner): except in a hazard, the ball shall be placed in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie which is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the hole and not in a hazard………" And it costs you a stroke...

[cabinessence]

It's the same as if you (or your playing partner or caddy) had kicked, stepped on, or moved your ball in any other inadvertent fashion. You get a penalty stroke and have to recreate the ball's original lie as accurately as possible.

[Augster]

YOUR CART is not outside influence. It is equipment. The ONLY way you can avoid a penalty stroke in this scenario is if your playing partner is your opponent and he was driving. Since he is in physical control of the vehicle it is his equipment at the time. (Decision 18-8)

Since you were driving, it is a penalty stroke and you need to recreate the original lie. Not a drop.

I will try to keep this short, as I hate Rule 18 as written.....

If your ball was in a hazard, and you accidentally ran over it as you did, IN SEARCHING FOR IT, there WOULD NOT be a penalty. You would recreate the lie, IN THE HAZARD no less, and take your options from there. Also if the ball were in an "Abnormal Ground Condition", there would not be a penalty for running over your ball. 8" of long grass in a fairway seems abnormal too me, unfortunately that is not the case in the Rules.

Then there is Rule 18-6 that contradicts all of the above. If you could deem yourself as "measuring" and happen to run it over, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced to the original lie. Unfortunately, as told to me by the USGA, this is not in the "spirit of the game".

For almost every rule and situation you can find a loophole in the Rules based on the hypothetical. These hypothetical instances can get you out of most penalty strokes. Unfortunately, as I said above, it is not in the "spirit of the game".

Say your ball was in this long grass at, what 175 out. You roll up and accidentally roll over it as noticed by your playing partner. As stated above, it was an accident and you are assessed a penalty stroke. Though, if you really wanted to avoid the penalty stroke and your partner's ball was somewhat close to yours (away from the pin) yardage-wise, you could theoretically say you were measuring in from the 200 stake to see who was away and who had the honor, you or him.

Since you accidentally moved your ball in measuring who was away, the ball is replaced to the original lie and no penalty stroke is assessed. It is a stretch, I know, and the lie works a LOT better when you are on foot and can say how many steps (yards) inside the 200 marker you are which is tough to do in a cart. But again, golf is an honorable game and acts such as this are not in keeping with the "spirit of the game".

Sorry for the long-winded reply. I hate Rule 18 as written.

[gwlee7]

Different scenario:

If you hit the golf cart with your ball do you get the same 2 shot penalty as you would for hitting your equipment (e.g., hitting your bag when it is laying near the green)? What if you are not the one driving the cart but your bag is on it?\

EDIT: Augster was literally reading my mind (LOL).

[Augster]

GW,

Now you are getting into Rule 19, Ball in Motion Deflected or Stopped.

Since the BALL is in motion in your scenario, you are exactly correct that you take TWO STROKES for hitting your own cart.

If your cart is STILL, it is always two strokes, even if your opponent/pal is sitting at the wheel. Technically, according to decision 19-2, if the cart is stopped HE is part of your equipment. So if you hit him you also take two strokes.

This changes if he starts moving the cart. Once the cart is in motion, it is no longer your equipment as you are not in physical control of it.

This from Decision 19-1 "If two players share a golf cart, the cart and everything in it are deemed to be the equipment of the player whose ball is involved; except that, when the cart is being moved by one of the players, the cart and everything in it are deemed to be that player’s equipment."

That should make it pretty clear. Always happy to help.

[Eracer]

Thanks guys - great answers. Augster, I knew I could draw you out of the shadows with a rules question....:laugh: