Those of you with clubhead lag...

[$2 Nassau]

and you know who you are (and are not)!!!

...Is it something that you worked to achieve? If so, what did you do to obtain clubhead lag? (i.e. drills, swing thoughts, etc).

It seems the more I think about trying to lag the clubhead the less likely I am to do it, basically I just keep the wrist **** and push the shot to the right, never releasing the club. Sure, I had plenty of lag, but I guess it's pointless if you don't release. duh.

Is lag just a result of a sound swing?

Thanks. Happy Friday to all.

[cypressperch]

when the sequence of movement of "body parts" (a better term evades me at present) is correct and there is good rhythm and tempo.

Sequence: Going back, the clubhead moves first as the hands move the whole club back. Arms move, then shoulders turn. Hips turn, but not so much as shoulders (the bigger the difference between shoulder turn and hip turn, the bigger the "X-Factor" but you can wind up so tight that you might violently cast at the beginning of the down-swing ruining everything). The last thing that will move or perhaps want to move, will be the heel on the front foot coming up a bit.

The down-swing is in reverse order. Heel of front foot down as left hip "bumps" to left and quickly starts turning after the little"bump." (The bump often and wrongly becomes a left slide which ruins the swing.) The shoulders begin to uncoil. The arms are coming down. Here comes the hands with the club. The clubhead is the last thing to start down.

Biggest, most common sequence problem is attacking the ball with the upper body BEFORE THE LOWER BODY HAS BEEN GIVEN THE CORRECT HEADSTART TO GET OUT OF THE WAY. The result is the over-the-top, slice, pull, out-side-to-in move that hurts so many golfers.

To me, Rhythm means things are smooth and fluid and flowing rather than jerky, mechanical.

Tempo is like timing. Timing differs from sequence in that timing, or tempo, is by the numbers. Examples: one-two; one-two-three; one-two-three-four. The speed that the numbers are counted can result in slow or fast or medium tempo. A book entitled TOUR TEMPO has truly found out a remarkable thing about the tempo of tour players. When filmed, their swings almost invariably follow a 3:1 ratio between frames of pictures going back and frames of pictures from beginning of down-swing to impact. After fifty years of play, I am changing to a 27-9 tempo and my results have been almost immediate and very good. Get ready for some new thinking since one of the main ideas is that we are swinging the clubs too slowly. Aren't we told to swing back slowly? Yes, we are, but look at Tiger Woods' swing and tell me how that is in any way a slow swing.

When you swing as I have described, you will automatically have lag, and perhaps more importantly, the release of that energy can come at the correct point in the swing.

Best if luck to you with your game. Sincerely, Cypressperch

[$2 Nassau]

Thanks Cypress.....actually I just purchased Tour Tempo....it arrived last week but I haven't had the chance to read all of it yet or listen to the CD. But I am very intrigued by the 3:1 ratio aspect. It does sound strange that us amateurs swing too slow, but I tend to agree. We take advice to heart, things like "swing slow,"or "keep your head perfectly still", etc, etc. It leads to ugly swings and too much tension.

I went to a PGA tour event back in June here in CT. Those guys are not swinging slow. Smooth and tension free? Oh yeah no doubt....but slow? No way. You don't generate swing speeds of 120+ by swinging "slow."

[twofast2s]

i completely agree w/ cypress. when you're tensed up, you loose your tempo. smooth tempo/timing will allow you to swing on correct plane and mechanics. this creates lags that you desire. think more of free flowing/fluid swing.

i had trouble blocking it because i had tensed up too much. just relax and hit. you'll be suprised how far the ball travels. smooth tempo also sqaures the club face impact as well.

[SiberianDVM]

cypressperch, I totally agree with your description of the proper swing sequence, and it is what I try to practise.

I also have the Tour Tempo player, the little green one with the earbud. I bought it used a year or so ago, and practised religiously with it for a while. My complaint with it is that I think the tempos are rediculously fast. The 27/9 is the only one that I could come close to matching. For a device that is supposed to help amateurs, I found it geared more towards fast swinging professionals. 18/6? Give me a break!!!

I would like the Tour Tempo player a lot more if it had a "beginner" tempo of 30/10 as the default tempo, then be selectable for 27/9 & 24/8. Who needs 21/7 and 18/6 unless you are a pro?

I do like the putting tempos, but there again I preferred the slower 20/10.

Maybe it's just me. I'm slow.

[FKA19]

to lag it , i think about driving the but of the grip into the ground when i start my downswing

[TheWOAT]

I try to practice chipping with my wrists set with lag, and before a full swing, I move the club back forth with lag to get used to the feeling coming through the ball with lag. I also do practice swings with lag and the desired follow through.. As CypressP said, the "sequence" will take care of the lag

Question about the swing sequence...
Ive read in a few places (dont remember where or which book) that as you bump your hips, the arms will naturally come down. So from the top of my backswing, I "step" with my front foot, simultaneously the hip "bumps" and the arms come down about 6 inches. Am I still within the realm of proper technique, or am I opening up a can of worms here with future swing issues?

[JEFF4i]

Lag just kind of came.

Now I just try and hit the bloody thing as hard as I possibly ever could. Works great!

[$2 Nassau]

Jeff4i: Your avatar, is that you swinging? Looks like some serious lag action there, very nice.

I just hit some balls at lunch....the only thing I concentrated on was being loose and fluid. This was very difficult at first....as I am constantly littering my mind with technical mumbo jumbo. It felt good, I hit some crisp ones.

okay wait, I lied. I did think of one tiny little technical thing, which is basically just getting to my front foot a little earlier, which I guess isn't all that "technical" really. I usually don't get my weight to the front until AFTER impact. I typically strike the ball with my weight about centered I'd say....sometimes maybe even a little on my back foot (GASP).

I tried to concentrate on where the tension was coming on certain swings that didn't feel loose and smooth. It seemed to happen that split second before impact.....right before I hit the ball ,sometimes I would really squeeze the club hard.....those shots were weak and to the right.

So, nice and loose with weight on front foot at impact (keeping head behind the ball of course) makes for crisp shots. Just need to pound it into my thick head....which should take about 3 years.

[SplooGe]

I did not read everyone's posts as I should have but my swingthought when I played baseball was swing the knob. I guess it has stuck with me.

[JEFF4i]

Originally Posted by $2 Nassau

Jeff4i: Your avatar, is that you swinging? Looks like some serious lag action there, very nice.

So, nice and loose with weight on front foot at impact (keeping head behind the ball of course) makes for crisp shots. Just need to pound it into my thick head....which should take about 3 years.

Hehe, thanks. So yeah, that's me,

As far as me saying swing as hard as you can, that's a bunch of bull. As you said, loose, smooth, and good rhythm will make your swing as good as anything.

Just kind of hard to wrap your head around. What helps me is pretending it's only me and the ball.

[dave.]

I work at it.Full shoulder turn is the key,then good timing.I have to work at it all,plus pulling in the right elbow back to the hip,thats my key to good timing

[cypressperch]

in your sequencing sounds fine to me. I think Manuel de la Torre is correct when he says that all the parts might actually start at the same time. It is like a military formation in which they all start at the same time though the first rank leads. I am certain in my own swing that when I press down on the heel of my lead or front foot, my hip moves left, and my shoulders make a small movement that has my hands moving down a bit. If I keep turning the hips, all is well. When the shoulders uncoil and the arms come down, they do not have to come over-the-top because a place has been cleared allowing a from-the-inside attack of the ball. As Dave said and especially if you have made a fairly wide arc going back, good timing will include bringing the right arm back to the side. A more big-muscle, connected swing will require less concern about that right elbow.

Getting back to Manuel de la Torre, he does not believe in shifting the weight from the center going back. I was amazed that such an authority would suggest such an idea. He also suggests using the hands (both as a unit) to get the club back and up to the top; then, he says it is the arms (both as a unit) swinging the whole club down and through the ball. After fifty years of having a weight shift where the weight goes on an arc into the right or back foot (INSIDE AT THE HEEL), I am experimenting with the de la Torre idea, and so far, it is actually doing quite well. He emphasizes staying loose more than any writer I have come in contact with.


The main beauty of thinking about tempo is that when tempo is good, your mechanics will be good too without thinking about them. If you have bad mechanics, you will not be at impact on time. No wonder we are taught to swing slow since that gives us time to square up with the ball even if our mechanics are faulty. The cure may very well be to work on our mechanics, perhaps at a somewhat slowed down speed, but to give plenty of time also to swinging at a better tempo. The 27-9 is pretty easy to follow. Also, the CD that comes with TOUR TEMPO, the book, has some very slow 3-1 tempos included. The author called Ed Furgal's 18-6 tempo a "lightning strike."

When things get really fluid, looks will deceive. I was amazed to learn that Ernie Els is actually swinging faster than Nick Price! Also interesting, when Tiger made his swing changes, he actually lengthened his swing a bit though he quickened his pace to 24-8.

Sincerely, Cypressperch

[Shea_Butler]

You cannot really think about how much clubhead lag you have... It usually naturally comes, because when you think about it your wrists get "tensed" and snappy. To me personally, without a huge long essay, I just make sure my grip is semi firm but wrists are much more relaxed (still mantaining the one piece takeaway of course). Once you can do that get the feeling of swinging with every thing else other than your hands/wrists and you ll get it. Definately if you practice it it ll come soon. BTW dont think lol just relax.

[Sandpiper3]

The slower I swing, the more control AND more lag I have in my swing because the club is in the proper positions, so at like half speed I almost hit it as far because of proper lag through the swing

Of course I dont slow it down that much