Course Design Irritations

[RCI]

Jeff4i mentioned something about a first hole at 498 yards with a tight fairway being a poor course design. I agree, first holes should not hold up the speed of play and promote a discouraging score for the majority of players. I have a few more suggestions of what I think are poor design choices.

1. Sand traps which are not visually apparent, especially off the tee. Hidden traps with no visible sand lip are like hidden pot bunkers in the middle of fairways... I don't like them.
2. Greens that have pin placement locations which require chip or flop shots to get down in two. These are greens where you can hit the green but have no way to putt to within a decent two putt distance no matter your putting skill.
3. Holes which offer no alternative way to be played for weaker players. I don't mind a required 200+ yard carry, but if tees are not provided for shorter hitters, or a route around the hazard with an extra shot option, many weaker players would be unable to play them.
4. Holes that require multiple and sequential same club shots... such as a par five best played with 3 five irons. A better design would be one in which different clubs would be an option. In general, I don't like par fours or fives which require the tee shot to be an iron, but there are lots of them.

I realize some of these course design suggestions are critical of a few of the best courses and holes in golf. Any of you guys play Pine Valley? Power golf is not an advantage on this great track. Compared to a place like Augusta National or PGA West (very good risk/reward courses) Pine Valley is more like brain surgery. But it is still one of the greatest courses ever.

I could list many more ideas... but maybe you guys can add your own "dislikes." I like risk/reward designs. If you can crush it and sneak it between two traps on a par five (or cut a little dog leg,) you should be given the chance to hit a 250 (maybe even 280) yard shot to hit a par five in two. A safe 3-wood, short of the narrow optimum landing area, followed by a good lay up to 100 to 120 yards, and then a good wedge should allow the safer player with skill to birdie with a one putt. I like power golf, but respect skilled short games -- and I think courses should set up for both types of players. I don't even mind 500+ yard par fours, just don't force me to hit a 3 wood off the tee.

[JEFF4i]

Par 3s as a first hole, or long 4s. Yuck.

[gwlee7]

Originally Posted by JEFF4i

Par 3s as a first hole, or long 4s. Yuck.

I don't like Par 3's as a finishing hole either. As much as I like the course where I am playing tomorrow, the finishing hole is a 200 yard is par three. Same is that it is a beautiful hole but, it should be the 17th not the last.

[rubber314chicken]

any corse that doesn't have a few holes where a driver off the tee will get you into a ton of trouble. otherwise its a boring game.

[JEFF4i]

Originally Posted by gwlee7

I don't like Par 3's as a finishing hole either. As much as I like the course where I am playing tomorrow, the finishing hole is a 200 yard is par three. Same is that it is a beautiful hole but, it should be the 17th not the last.

Par 5s as 18 are my favorite. I like starting with a 4, 9 and 18 as a 5.

[floggerrushmd]

I hate courses that don't make you think and select different clubs off of almost every tee. I think that too much emphasis is placed in this game on long drives followed by long second shots. I enjoy courses that require you to choose a club wisely off of the tee, and then execute that shot. Many people do not like these designs, but a course where I hit every club in my bag is a real rarity these days and when I find one I play it again and again. I do like risk reward type holes, but I think that the risk and reward need to be increased a bit. Also I love blind tee shots the best course in the world would require you to play it more than three times before you fully appreciate it. Blind tee shots are a must for that. But with that being said I absolutely hate blind approach shots. If you are in trouble and thus can't see the green that is one thing, but if you are in the middle of the fairway 200yds or less in you should be able to see at least part of the green. I realize that on uphill holes this is not an option but flat holes do not need a 20ft. mound built up in front of the green.

The two things that I hate most about courses though are bad starters - this guys sole job is to make sure that groups go off on time (not EARLY) if number 1 is a par 4 wait till the group in front is clearing the green before teeing off reguardless of whether it is drivable or not.

The second thing I hate is people playing from the wrong tees for their game. I understand it on courses like Pebble, Pinehurst #2, the Old Course etc. but on the local muni if you are above a 10 hdcp do not go back to the tips. You are not doing yourself any favors and you are not helping the course/ pace of play.

I will stop here because I am begining to rant way to much.

[David Hillman]

There's a course near here that has so much sand around some greens that there's no way to walk from the cart parking to the green or back without going way out of our your way, or cutting through the sand. The course is otherwise great, so it's surprising how little thought apparently went into that. Just a little walkway through the huge side bunkers would help tremendously.

I don't get the fetish about par 5 finishing holes, or no par 3s. They're all golf holes, what difference does it make?

[millrivermem]

the thing the disgusts me the most is stepping up to a par3 that is like 220 and up yards..like seriously the green in regualtion stat on holes like them must be extremely low...unless its like a friggin st.andrews sized green...

[RCI]

Great ideas coming out here.

Another thing I don't like is for the par 3's to all be 195 to 230+ yards. I think a great course should have at least one par three on each side that is 175 yards or shorter.... just for variety if nothing else. Also, I think having a drivable par four is usually a fun idea. A green can have lots of defenses, and still be drivable with a great shot.

I fully agree the first hole should not be a par three or an overly difficult par four. And don't get me wrong, I do not mind having a variety of tee shots, I just do not like backwards holes where the first shot is played shorter than the second shot (that seems backwards to me.)

Blind Tee shorts... personally, it all depends. If the objective is obvious and there are no hidden hazards, then that's OK. If you do not have a yardage book and the blind tee shot is into an area with hazards or possible OB, then that seems extreme. Blind shots to greens are really hard, especially if hidden traps and extreme danger over-the-green are present (and you don't know it.)

There are courses that take a few rounds to learn to appreciate -- they are like chess matches. The good ones are OK, but some of them are just too tricked up for me.

[Wi-Golfer]

I don't mind blind tee shots, I actually like using an iron off some tees on par 4's. There is one dogleg right I play all the time & a 6 iron off the tee will carry the corner nicely & set you up for a 160-170 yd approach shot.

I would eliminate all par 3's, hate them with a passion. But if they must be there then get rid of the ridiculous 200+ yd ones.

Regarding the sand traps, I played a course with the biggest damn sand traps on the planet & the course is covered in them. You didn't walk around them, you drove around because it would take too damn long otherwise.

I really enjoy doglegged holes & holes which have trees or sandtraps in the middle of the fairway. Forces you to make club choices...driver, 3w, 4w, etc off the tee.

[mddubya]

The course where I live is a par 35 nine hole course with 2 par 3's. One of them has water all down the left side, and out of bounds all down the right. The magin for error is nonexcistent. If you don't hit a perfect tee shot you are looking at a double bogey if not a triple double. Add to that the fact that the green is sadistically slanted towards the water and it can be a round killer.

[RCI]

I wonder who decided that some courses needed hundreds and hundreds of railroad ties? Fazio? RT Jones? Or, maybe the guy who owned a bunch of old railroad ties.

[rubber314chicken]

the ONLY par 3 I like is at a beginner's golf coruse and it is a 115 yard hole. doesn't sound har until you realize the green is a mere 10x20 ft and it is a good 30 ft uphill. A good 9 iron shot will get you on the green, but a bad shot will leave you in tees that line each side, or with a really really bad uphill lie.

[millrivermem]

Originally Posted by Wi-Golfer

I don't mind blind tee shots, I actually like using an iron off some tees on par 4's. There is one dogleg right I play all the time & a 6 iron off the tee will carry the corner nicely & set you up for a 160-170 yd approach shot.

I would eliminate all par 3's, hate them with a passion. But if they must be there then get rid of the ridiculous 200+ yd ones.

Regarding the sand traps, I played a course with the biggest damn sand traps on the planet & the course is covered in them. You didn't walk around them, you drove around because it would take too damn long otherwise.

I really enjoy doglegged holes & holes which have trees or sandtraps in the middle of the fairway. Forces you to make club choices...driver, 3w, 4w, etc off the tee.

i played a course two weeks ago here on p.e.i. that had a 320 yard par 4 with a 310 yard long bunker...haha rediculous...basically the whole left side of the fairway was jail

[Wi-Golfer]

Something else I don't like is postage stamp sized greens. You watch the PGA & the courses those guys play have massive greens, some appear to be 10,000 sq ft. Hell of alot easier to get GIR on one of those compared to a 400 sq ft one. 1 course near me has very very small greens & a lot of them are elevated. It's a challenging course but it's also a very discouraging course at the same time. Between the tiny greens, all the blind 2nd shots, the water, trees trees & more trees, it's not a fun course to play unless you are at the absolute top of your game.