Sand bunker placement RANT

[zaphod]

Just got off the Wild Rock golf course with Wi-golfer. One of the unusual features of the course was the location of small pot bunkers with an elevated back face. Four(?) of these bunkers were located directly in front of the entrance to the green from the middle of the fairway. Past the backside of the bunker was rough which then directly converted to fringe with, say 5 to 10 yards, from the back lip to fringe. The green then slopes away from the bunker and golfer to the cup. These were generally on par 5s or short par 4s. Also the greens were elevated so the sculpture of the green could not be seen from say 100 yards out. The back side of the raised lip of the bunker obliterated the view. You actually had a better entry to the green from the rough either side at 100 yards out. Why would you do this?????

These holes either required you drive up to see what was going on, play blind, or some local knowledge.

I am not a fan of this set up. If the object is to create a premium on wedge distance and spin control there are better ways to do this. Tiered greens. False fronts. Narrow the green. Increase speed of the green. Make the green surface hard. But to force the high pitch is not in the spirit of the game. The bump and run shot should be available from the fairway. Maybe that shot choice the most prudent choice, but it till should be available. Playing from the rough should be a disadvantage.

Just a rant about WTF the designer had in mind. NOT ON MY COURSE!!!!!!

[Fourputt]

It sounds like he was simply trying to recreate an old style links course. What you describe isn't that uncommon in Scottish links golf, and yes it does place a premium on some knowledge of the course (and having a laser rangefinder isn't a bad idea on that kind of course either). I've heard that going out on St. Andrews for the first time without a guide, you won't even have clue where you are going off the tee half the time. The Course I played Saturday is a Pete/Perry Dye links design, and you often can't tell from the tee whether the hole doglegs left or right. Links courses often have subtle misdirections built into them, just the nature of the beast.

We are so used to perfectly laid out courses here that it's easy to forget that the original golf courses were nothing more than sheep pastures that were gradually tweaked into a recognizable golf layout.

Wild Rock sounds like an interesting course to me... I might not break 100 on it, but it would be fun trying.

[Eracer]

I think forcing a high pitch approach (as opposed to a bump-run approach) is much more an American design goal than a classic Scottish design goal. Certainly the "backwards bunker" that is hidden from view is a links-style feature, but they are almost never located directly in front of the green. At least they weren't on the nine Scottish links courses I played. There were plenty of those types of bunkers, but they were designed to catch drives and short approaches, not pitches into the green from the fairway.

Zaphod - this is one of the reasons that the electric cart is evil. A designer should be able to add interesting (and sometimes devilish) features to a course without requiring multiple plays to learn them. That's what caddies are for. Sure, if you want to walk onto a course for the first time and play it without a caddie, you should prepare to be surprised.

I guess the designer of Wild Rock decided he was going to make HIS course -first timer playability be damned.

[Wi-Golfer]

I actually thought they were kinda neat looking & definitely made you make a concious decision to either layup a fair distance before those bunkers, or play it off to the side.

The cart had GPS & it gave all sorts of info, how far your drives were, how far to the sand or whatever obstacle & also how far to clear said obstacle. The one thing it didn't offer was a 3d map, so you really had no idea if the ground sloped off behind the green or not & sometimes it would slope off severly to one side or the other, we both found that out numerous times. Local knowledge from playing the course previously would certainly help a ton.

Fourputt, we too had several doglegs where from the tee box you had zero idea which way it went. The fairway would be hidden between a couple of massive bunkers.

From the pics I posted you can see several bunkers also placed in the fairways right around the 220-240 yd distance. Definitely had to pick out a landing spot but then with the nasty wind yesterday sometimes it was more like hope & pray.

[PureStroke]

Originally Posted by zaphod

Just got off the Wild Rock golf course with Wi-golfer. One of the unusual features of the course was the location of small pot bunkers with an elevated back face. Four(?) of these bunkers were located directly in front of the entrance to the green from the middle of the fairway. Past the backside of the bunker was rough which then directly converted to fringe with, say 5 to 10 yards, from the back lip to fringe. The green then slopes away from the bunker and golfer to the cup. These were generally on par 5s or short par 4s. Also the greens were elevated so the sculpture of the green could not be seen from say 100 yards out. The back side of the raised lip of the bunker obliterated the view. You actually had a better entry to the green from the rough either side at 100 yards out. Why would you do this?????

These holes either required you drive up to see what was going on, play blind, or some local knowledge.

I am not a fan of this set up. If the object is to create a premium on wedge distance and spin control there are better ways to do this. Tiered greens. False fronts. Narrow the green. Increase speed of the green. Make the green surface hard. But to force the high pitch is not in the spirit of the game. The bump and run shot should be available from the fairway. Maybe that shot choice the most prudent choice, but it till should be available. Playing from the rough should be a disadvantage.

Just a rant about WTF the designer had in mind. NOT ON MY COURSE!!!!!!

Lol maybe you should design a course and see where you might put some bunkers. I bet you too would stick them in some funky locations also(just judging by your posting personality). But then again you should try and fit that high pitch shot into your arsenal. Because you never know when you may need it .Thats like saying who put that tree in the fairway 245 yds out . Because the average golfer hits it about 240 off the tee and will have to emphasize on strategy to make his par for that hole. But we all deserve to rant sometimes . I have played some course that make you wonder what the designer was smokin when he designed some of the holes ......owell

[zaphod]

Originally Posted by PureStroke

Lol maybe you should design a course and see where you might put some bunkers. I bet you too would stick them in some funky locations also(just judging by your posting personality). But then again you should try and fit that high pitch shot into your arsenal. Because you never know when you may need it .Thats like saying who put that tree in the fairway 245 yds out . Because the average golfer hits it about 240 off the tee and will have to emphasize on strategy to make his par for that hole. But we all deserve to rant sometimes . I have played some course that make you wonder what the designer was smokin when he designed some of the holes ......owell

The high pitch is a mainstay of my game. Actually a strength of my game. I feel VERY COMFORTABLE with a 52* and 60* wedge. Pitch and run is used less frequently. I just thought these bunkers slowed down the game unnecessarily. If I was playing for a competition one would have to go all the way up to the green and back to determine the lay of the land.

Agreed pot bunkers are neat but the links courses I've played and seen ARE NOT placed directly in front of the entrance to the green. I suspect the designer was interested in keeping birds and eagle attempts at a minimum.

Overall the course was enjoyable---just would have found a better way to protect the green. I like false fronts with large slopes. These FF accomplish the same test of distance control and afford a view if the target.

I also agree with Wi-Golfer the bunkers are neat looking. Did not enter one so I did not experience their harsh side. If I was to play this course several times they would also not come into play. As far as I can see the only purpose they serve is to capture poor shots and hide the view of the contour of the green.

[Eracer]

Originally Posted by PureStroke

I bet you too would stick them in some funky locations also(just judging by your posting personality).

How does Zaphod's "posting personality" lead you to believe that he would put hidden pot bunkers in front of greens?

I've been here a good long while, and Zaphod is one of the more straight-up members here. He's not especially given to double-entendres or subtle insults.

So what did you mean?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Eracer

How does Zaphod's "posting personality" lead you to believe that he would put hidden pot bunkers in front of greens?

I've been here a good long while, and Zaphod is one of the more straight-up members here. He's not especially given to double-entendres or subtle insults.

So what did you mean?

If you read his first post, He doesn't say that the bunkers are hidden, what he says is that they disguise the lay of the land between them and the green. He even says that they have an "elevated back face" which sounds to me as if they are actually quite visible.

[Eracer]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If you read his first post, He doesn't say that the bunkers are hidden, what he says is that they disguise the lay of the land between them and the green. He even says that they have an "elevated back face" which sounds to me as if they are actually quite visible.

I took "back face" to mean the side nearer the fairway. Maybe I misunderstood.

Thing is, if "back face" means the part closest to the green, then it sounds just like a normal bunker. Why would that be cause for complaint? Every course has those.

[Wi-Golfer]

Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of those bunkers. Let me try & describe them, imagine you are in the middle of the fairway maybe 10-15 yds out from the green & everything is flat leading up to the green. Normally you might try a little chip or possibly a bump & run to get on the green.

Well what they did here was put these bunker directly in front of the green with the backside...that's the side closest to the green..extremely built up. It's now a pot bunker but the backside is so high you literally could not see the green & had no idea how deep the green was, what was on the back side, etc etc.

[PureStroke]

Originally Posted by Eracer

How does Zaphod's "posting personality" lead you to believe that he would put hidden pot bunkers in front of greens?

I've been here a good long while, and Zaphod is one of the more straight-up members here. He's not especially given to double-entendres or subtle insults.

So what did you mean?

Hmmm... Please dont take this the wrong way but......I wasnt talkin to you bro. So I dont think you need to know what I meant. Anyways its cool that your a bit nosyImeancurious ...lol

[PureStroke]

Originally Posted by Wi-Golfer

Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of those bunkers. Let me try & describe them, imagine you are in the middle of the fairway maybe 10-15 yds out from the green & everything is flat leading up to the green. Normally you might try a little chip or possibly a bump & run to get on the green.

Well what they did here was put these bunker directly in front of the green with the backside...that's the side closest to the green..extremely built up. It's now a pot bunker but the backside is so high you literally could not see the green & had no idea how deep the green was, what was on the back side, etc etc.

That does sound like a tricky shot or visual. I gues it would take some course knowledge for that one.. Maybe Johnny Miller designed it because he is known for blind shots and false fronts and crappy bunker placements. Did I mention I dont like johnny miller or his designs JMO

[juniortodd46]

I went to a course in NC a few years back that had like 100 bunkers. Most of them were in the area of where most of us landed our drives. It made for a frustrating day.

[JEFF4i]

Originally Posted by PureStroke

Hmmm... Please dont take this the wrong way but......I wasnt talkin to you bro. So I dont think you need to know what I meant. Anyways its cool that your a bit nosyImeancurious ...lol

Walking a fine line PureStroke.

Passive aggresive posts are frowned upon here.

Also, it is necessary for him to know what you meant, if it wasn't, you would have PMed. Perhaps you should research where the term, "forum," comes from.

[PureStroke]

Originally Posted by JEFF4i

Walking a fine line PureStroke.

Passive aggresive posts are frowned upon here.

Also, it is necessary for him to know what you meant, if it wasn't, you would have PMed. Perhaps you should research where the term, "forum," comes from.

Hmmm ...I do apologize but reallly I was talkin to the other guy... And I m not in anyway aggressive unless I see a reachable par 5. Cheers