Rules question - Provisional ball.

[Eracer]

I hit a drive that might have gone out of bounds. I hit a provisional ball into the fairway, well past the original ball.

When I got to where I thought the first ball may have gone out, I found it in bounds, but unplayable.

I declared the first ball unplayable, and put the second (provisional) ball in play, under stroke and distance penalty.

My playing partner told me that I needed to abandon the provisional ball and continue on according to the rules for playing a ball declared unplayable.

My contention was that I had already taken a stroke and distance penalty, and was right to play the provisional ball.

I looked it up, and am now quite confused (no surprise there...)



From this is sounds like the player has the option to take a stroke and distance penalty at any time.

27-1a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance

At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.
Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance.

And here it sounds like you can abandon any ball simply by continuing to play the provsional ball:

27-2b. The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be.

If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

But then it says this (and that last paragraph makes absolutely no sense to me...)

27-2c. If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball.

If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Note: If a player plays a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with a provisional ball subsequently abandoned under Rule 27-2c and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.



What say you, rules gurus?

[Pa Jayhawk]

If you find your first ball in play any time you call a provisional, even if it is unplayable, the provisional you hit is no longer on the table as an option.

At that point you can either play the original, take a penalty within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole, drop directly behind the ball as far as he wishes where the ball in using the ball and the hole as a directional or go back and retee 3.

[horstmc]

But then it says this (and that last paragraph makes absolutely no sense to me...)

27-2c. If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball.

If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Note: If a player plays a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with a provisional ball subsequently abandoned under Rule 27-2c and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.

Once you found your original ball, the provisional is not an option. If you declare your original ball unplayable, then you can proceed under the unplayable rules; including returning to the tee box and taking a stroke and distance penalty.

Think of is this way. The rules of golf do not allow one to choose between two different balls that you have in play (the original tee shot and the provisional).

[LyleG]

Originally Posted by Pa Jayhawk

If you find your first ball in play any time you call a provisional, even if it is unplayable, the provisional you hit is no longer on the table as an option.

At that point you can either play the original, take a penalty within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole, or go back and retee 3.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

[Eracer]

So...once I declared the second ball provisional, rule 27-1a no longer applied, and once I found the original, rule 27-2b no longer applied.

I see how the rule applies, but it doesn't make sense. Stroke and distance is the worst penalty that can be applied to a situation. In the interest of speeding up play, it makes sense that the provisional SHOULD be allowed to be used as the penalty for an unplayable ball (as well as for a lost or out-of-bounds ball.)

But then, the rules don't always make sense, especially when it comes to speeding up play.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Eracer

I see how the rule applies, but it doesn't make sense. Stroke and distance is the worst penalty that can be applied to a situation. In the interest of speeding up play, it makes sense that the provisional SHOULD be allowed to be used as the penalty for an unplayable ball (as well as for a lost or out-of-bounds ball.)

But then, the rules don't always make sense, especially when it comes to speeding up play.

Yeah, on a leisurely non-tournament round, you will not see me going back to the tee to retee. I would not do that to my playing partners or the people behind me if that is the case. Although it has happened to me in a tournament where I have had too..

Then again, the way I play out of trouble, and because I am so used to being in such, it would be very rare that if I can see the ball I will not be able to play the ball.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Also consider there is a very good reason for this part of the rule and it works both ways. You can also play your provisional all the way up to the point where you believe your original ball to be. You could lie 7 even with your original ball, find the original, and none of those seven strokes count. You could then retee 3. You could also hit your provisional O.B., find the first, and the provisional again does not count. Although more importantly, by keeping the provisional in play, you are presented an option of the best ball you can play, which is not what golf should be about.

Saw Mickelson and Licklighter do this on a playoff hole, both hit provisional, both found their balls, both abandoned the provisionals and went back to retee. Although Mickelson should be happy to walk away with a win. Licklighter hit his first into an unspeakable lie, and Mickelson preceded to still play driver. Then about threw a tizee when he told them not to look for his ball, but they had already found the ball and asked him to come identify the ball, he didn't want too but had too. Again, he had an option where if he had he no intent to play the ball he could have just as easily abandoned the ball and not call a provisional, in which case he could have told them to go pound sand when they found the first, or they could have told him to pound sand if it had kicked in the fairway and he didn't know.

[floggerrushmd]

Alright so technically if you are playing in a tournament or for loads of money yes you have to go back to the tee and hit another shot. BUT in the real world, where if you did this you would probably be brained by the group behind you forced to wait on the tee because the courses are too full, I say go ahead and play the provisional taking your stroke and distance as if it had been the shot you "would have hit" had you gone back to the tee.

[Eracer]

Originally Posted by floggerrushmd

Alright so technically if you are playing in a tournament or for loads of money yes you have to go back to the tee and hit another shot. BUT in the real world, where if you did this you would probably be brained by the group behind you forced to wait on the tee because the courses are too full, I say go ahead and play the provisional taking your stroke and distance as if it had been the shot you "would have hit" had you gone back to the tee.

I hit the provisional because I thought my ball may have been lost. If it had indeed been lost I would have played the provisional by the rule. Once I found the ball and declared it unplayable, I had two choices: Relief within two club lengths, no closer to the hole, or, drop anywhere on the line of flight back to the original spot.

If I had no relief, and the best spot along the line of flight was the tee box, then I would go back to the tee box. If the people there had a problem with that, I would explain the rules to them, and also explain that I had done everything in my power to speed up play (i.e, played a provisional.) Chances are that the best drop would be somewhere other than the tee box, but you never know. In this particular situation I could have taken the two club lengths.

I'm one of those guys that believes in playing by the rules, whether I'm playing a tournament, or a casual game. The only time I'll bend the rules is if I failed to do the right thing is keeping up pace of play, and that mistake will cause the folks behind me an unnecessary delay. In that case I'll bend the rules.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Eracer

So...once I declared the second ball provisional, rule 27-1a no longer applied, and once I found the original, rule 27-2b no longer applied.

I see how the rule applies, but it doesn't make sense. Stroke and distance is the worst penalty that can be applied to a situation. In the interest of speeding up play, it makes sense that the provisional SHOULD be allowed to be used as the penalty for an unplayable ball (as well as for a lost or out-of-bounds ball.)

But then, the rules don't always make sense, especially when it comes to speeding up play.

It does make sense when you study the rules as much as I have. I can't think of any situation where the rules allow the player to have 2 balls in play at the same time. The Rules of Golf deplore giving the player an option between 2 balls. You will notice that whenever there is a option in the rules, it is a choice of procedures to follow, not a choice of balls to play. A provisional ball is not in play until the original ball is not found, or is found out of bounds, or the provisional has been made the ball in play by making a stroke with it from beyond where the original ball is expected to be.

Once the original ball is found in bounds, the provisional ball is abandoned. Now you have three different procedural options, but only one ball is in play, and that is the original ball, whatever it's situation. If it is indeed unplayable, then you still have 2 other options besides stroke and distance, and that is why the provisional is abandoned... keeping it in play would eliminate options b and c under Rule 28. You would either have to play the provisional ball and abandon the original, or you would be given that choice of 2 balls in play which the rules simply will not allow.

There is a local rule that can be invoked for a ball that may be lost in a water hazard. The LR allows in certain special situations for the play of a provisional ball in the interest of speeding up play. But the LR is written in such a way that if it is invoked and the ball is subsequently found unplayable in the hazard, then the player MUST revert to the provisional ball. He loses any other option, and as a result, this rule is only used in a case where the only reasonable play would be to rehit from the original spot.

Originally Posted by Eracer

or, drop anywhere on the line of flight back to the original spot.

If I had no relief, and the best spot along the line of flight was the tee box, then I would go back to the tee box.

There is no relief along the line of flight. Line of flight has no bearing on anything under Rule 28. The line you can drop on is a line drawn from the hole to your ball, and you can drop anywhere back along that line as long as it's not nearer to the hole.

[Eracer]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It does make sense when you study the rules as much as I have. I can't think of any situation where the rules allow the player to have 2 balls in play at the same time. The Rules of Golf deplore giving the player an option between 2 balls. You will notice that whenever there is a option in the rules, it is a choice of procedures to follow, not a choice of balls to play. A provisional ball is not in play until the original ball is not found, or is found out of bounds, or the provisional has been made the ball in play by making a stroke with it from beyond where the original ball is expected to be.

Once the original ball is found in bounds, the provisional ball is abandoned. Now you have three different procedural options, but only one ball is in play, and that is the original ball, whatever it's situation. If it is indeed unplayable, then you still have 2 other options besides stroke and distance, and that is why the provisional is abandoned... keeping it in play would eliminate options b and c under Rule 28. You would either have to play the provisional ball and abandon the original, or you would be given that choice of 2 balls in play which the rules simply will not allow.

There is a local rule that can be invoked for a ball that may be lost in a water hazard. The LR allows in certain special situations for the play of a provisional ball in the interest of speeding up play. But the LR is written in such a way that if it is invoked and the ball is subsequently found unplayable in the hazard, then the player MUST revert to the provisional ball. He loses any other option, and as a result, this rule is only used in a case where the only reasonable play would be to rehit from the original spot.

Fine.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

There is no relief along the line of flight. Line of flight has no bearing on anything under Rule 28. The line you can drop on is a line drawn from the hole to your ball, and you can drop anywhere back along that line as long as it's not nearer to the hole.

Thanks for clearing that up. I misread the rule, and you make an important point.

[PureStroke]

Hmmm well you deffinetly don't have a choice between 2 shots. If you find the original ball in bounds then your provisional is obsolete or no longer playable. As for the unplayable call I would need further info on what was it that made your ball unplayable. IMO there is no such thing as an unplayable lie unless 1. Theres a golf cart parked on the ball with no battery or gas to move it 2.An alligator has the ball in his mouth Or 3. Standing water where there should be no water under normal playing conditions. If I can get a blade on it.... then play ball

[Eracer]

Originally Posted by PureStroke

Hmmm well you deffinetly don't have a choice between 2 shots. If you find the original ball in bounds then your provisional is obsolete or no longer playable. As for the unplayable call I would need further info on what was it that made your ball unplayable. IMO there is no such thing as an unplayable lie unless 1. Theres a golf cart parked on the ball with no battery or gas to move it 2.An alligator has the ball in his mouth Or 3. Standing water where there should be no water under normal playing conditions. If I can get a blade on it.... then play ball

The rule is that you can call any ball "unplayable." You can call a ball sitting up in the middle of the fairway "unplayable." Not sure why you would, but there are plenty of situations where a ball in plain view is "unplayable."

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Eracer

The rule is that you call any ball "unplayable." You can call a ball sitting up in the middle of the fairway "unplayable." Not sure why you would, but there are plenty of situations where a ball in plain view is "unplayable."

In this you are 100% correct. It is entirely up to the player to declare his ball unplayable. And he can do so anywhere on the course except in a water hazard.

[Eracer]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

In this you are 100% correct. It is entirely up to the player to declare his ball unplayable. And he can do so anywhere on the course except in a water hazard.

How about this situation?

You hit a tee shot on a par 3 that rolls over the green and under the lip of a rock that is sitting on the edge (but not in) a water hazard. You can't get a club on the ball, and must declare it unplayable. There is no place to take relief that is no closer to the hole. If you try a drop that keeps the spot where the ball lies between you and the hole, the ball goes into the hazard, or is unplayable again (lots of rocks.)