Torque is overrated

[Loop]

Creation of back-hip torque in the backswing is IMHO, not a power generator.
It only allows more time for the hands to get down in the correct path.
And besides, in the modern swing, torque disappears in the downswing.
A good power generator is the weight shift and hip turn at the correct moment before impact.
All of this to say that the X-factor is a big piece of crap...

Opinions welcome

[dave.]

What on earth is 'back-hip torque'?? The bottom half resists the top half,thats the way of the world.

[SiberianDVM]

The bottom half resists the top half,thats the way of the world.

Thus sayeth the god, Hogan, to mortals on page 71 of the Bible, er, Five Lessons, he wants to have this tension, ... for this tension is the whole key to the downswing.

Amen

[Kilted Arab]

Originally Posted by Loop

Creation of back-hip torque in the backswing is IMHO, not a power generator.
It only allows more time for the hands to get down in the correct path.
And besides, in the modern swing, torque disappears in the downswing.
A good power generator is the weight shift and hip turn at the correct moment before impact.
All of this to say that the X-factor is a big piece of crap...

Opinions welcome

I don't understand a word of this, but I like reading it!

[caddyshackgolf]

Originally Posted by Loop

Creation of back-hip torque in the backswing is IMHO, not a power generator.
It only allows more time for the hands to get down in the correct path.
And besides, in the modern swing, torque disappears in the downswing.
A good power generator is the weight shift and hip turn at the correct moment before impact.
All of this to say that the X-factor is a big piece of crap...

Opinions welcome

What exactly are you trying to tell us?

[Don]

LOOP; I've read the X-Factor, and I agree, the whole limited hip turn is a piece of nonsense. It looks like the rest of the members of this site don't understand you. I do, and I agree with you. Glad someone else figured out the same thing I did. I can't say that I agree with the bit about the torque disappearing. "And besides, in the modern swing, torque disappears in the downswing" If you turn your hips back to the right first and let the hips pull the upper body around, then you create more torque as you start down, you don't lose it. That's the whole idea of "the downswing begins from the ground up". If you watch Tiger, you can see how he turns the hips to the target and pulls the rest of his body into the ball. That's torque, it's still there. You just don't have to limit the hip turn, you use the full hip turn to create even more torque. Try it, it works.

[dave.]

Agreed,I would not disagree with that,had it been explained properly in the first place,instead we had a strange new term 'back-hip torque'.My downswing starts with the left knee,most do.

However,just a small point,Tiger is the greatest golfer ever,he is tall,super fit,super supple,has incredible talent and practices 8 hours a day with one of the worlds best coaches and with the best facilities.Trying to emulate that lot might not work.Better to swing within yourself and control the ball.I would agree that Tigers posture is as good as it gets,but after that he is in a different league.I am not saying you are wrong,just arguing that it might be a waste of time for the average golfer trying to emulate Tigers hip turn,we have neither the time nor talent to control it.

Personally,I don't limit the hip turn,its as big as the resulting shoulder turn pulls round.Be warned,deliberately increasing hip turn without a full shoulder tturn is very difficult and simply uneccessary.

Basically,I think all you are saying is start the downswing with the hips? If thats it,I agree if you mean left knee,its just the confusion of calling it 'back-hip torque.If not,I'm lost.

[Loop]

Don, hats off for understanding my subtle ramblings

Let me explain why, in my view, torque disappears in the downswing.

1. You make a full backswing turn, and at the end of the backswing, the angle between the shoulders and the hips is around 90 degrees (for example).
2. In the transition, you start with the hips, and create yet more torque, like 110 degrees. Here I agree with you.
3. In the middle of the downswing, when the hands are hip high, the hips actually needs to "wait" for the hands to get down (in the modern swing), so they can swing in the proper path. Thus the angle has lessened to 30-40 degrees or so, losing the torque.
4. Then you can your hips.

Point #3 is something not well understood, but it is a crucial point in the timing of the swing. You can see various tips in golf mags that tells about "keeping your back to the target in the downswing" or "starting the downswing with the hands because of too early hip turn...".
They all achieve the same goal.

And sorry for the confusing post

[dave.]

Ah,I see.Thats the secret of power,or 'timing as its sometimes called.Timing the release at point of impact when the club is at its fastest, ie the supposed late hit when the club returns to square.

i suppose torque disappears as soon as you've hit the ball,but I must admit to being in the realms of not really knowing what I'm talking about.Torque to me is just another way of saying the body has pent up power from the bottom half/top half coil,and when the legs and hips release first the downswing realeases this power,and the skill of the golfer will time that at impact.

[Loop]

You're right on target dave.
As you've guessed, there is a clear difference between starting the hips and firing them.

[Rockford35]

This seems to be alot of fussing over touques...they keep your head warm, what else do you need?

R35

[Don]

LOOP: If you can get 90 degrees difference between your hips and shoulders, you are one of the most flexible people on the planet. Most of the pros don't get close to 90 degrees, more like 60 at best. 45 is about average. And who says the hips have to stop turning a wait for the hands to come down. True, the hip turn can get out of control and cause problems, but the last thing you want to do is stop the hip turn and let the hands catch up. That's asking for major trouble. The whole idea of having a build up of torque is to have the lower body pull the upper body around and let the lower body add to your power. If you start down with the arms, the lower body can't add to your total power. Once the hips turn to the left, their work is done, they have pulled you upper body to the ball, and you have developed swing speed, and then your arms and hands can add to it. It all has to work together as one long coiling and uncoiling of the whole body if you want a consistant swing that developes the most swing speed you are capable of.

If you look at the pictures in the golf magazines with the full swing sequences, you will notice that the hips are open at impact, even if the shoulders are square to the ball. The hips are still pulling the upper body around and the arms are swinging down the target line because the shoulders are square to the ball. Do it correct and in sync, and you will be long and straight off the tee. Not that it works for me lately, but that's the idea at least.

[obagain]

Sorry but if you are waiting on your hand, your timing is off and you are losing power. The swing should be a constant flowing motion, anything else is wasted energy.

If you can feel yourself waiting, you have done it wrong too mant times. Keep everything together and you will see good results.

[dave.]

Agreed Obagain.And its getting too technical for me,so to quote Arnold Palmer "just hit the ****er"

[Loop]

I think there has been a general misunderstanding.
Don, I was only take an example for the angle.

OB, I never said that the hips should stop.
The hips rotates on a continuous motion.
But the hips really do have to wait for the hands to get in the slot (however weird that may sound).
At impact, the hips are open, I totally agree with you Don.
But BEFORE impact, when the hands reach hip or buckle height, the hips are square.
If they are open at that moment, you've fired your hips too early and your hands are lagging behind, and wasted a lot of energy for nothing.
If you don't believe me, just take a look at down-the-line swing sequences of Tour players when their hands reach buckle height...

lol, this thread is getting too technical, right dave ?