Driver vs. 60* Lob Wedge

[Pa Jayhawk]

O.K. I can't resist any longer. This just kills me every time I see a thread regarding the Lob Wedge.

I think I can say with a great deal of certainty that there are quite a few people that feel anyone who is not a single digit Handicap should not carry a LW. It is obviously a club you have to practice with to benifit from it's positive side.

I guess you may no where this is headed. How is a driver any different? Would you suggest that anyone without a single digit handicap should not carry a Driver. IMHO, a driver is far more Risk~Reward than a LW. THere are far more people out there that misuse and Driver, and usually very little is mentioned other than "Yeah, it takes a little practice". In all seriousness, thinking about this, over the last year I would believe that my driver has cost me far more strokes on the average than my LW and I hit my driver far better than alot of the people I play with. I would say for most mid to high handicaps, they probably lose far more strokes with their driver. Personally half the reason I opt for a LW is that I know with my distance off the tee and consistency, I need all the help I can get with my short game to stop the bleeding. A LW is no different than a putter, chipping, or pitching. It is more of a finesse game that I am far more likely to perfect in my lifetime then being able to hit a ball 300 yards with consistency.

Taking this in to consideration, I have to ask those who say a double digit handicap should not carry a LW. Do you feel the same about a driver, do you feel a driver is easier to manipulate, and learn with more consistancy, do you feel time is just better spent practicing other things. Without pointing fingers I just have to ask this because the more I think of think of this the more I think that if you are going to practice use of a club you are far more likely to perfect a LW than a Driver. It is something you can learn, it is something you can mentally manage, it is something that can save you strokes. I really doubt that I will ever learn to hit a driver 300 yards down the fairway in the time it takes me to learn to hit a LW to within 5 feet of the hole when it is so required.

Just curious, in all honesty based on the people you see on the standard course and play with, should they really carry a driver in the Risk~Reward mentality. If not what do you think the response would be and do you feel that the whole "for the fun of the game" scenario should be acknowledged?

Your Thoughts??

[Rockford35]

Short game and putting get you good scores, not your driver.

If you have a single digit handicap, i'm thinking that your grasp of both your course management and club contact is probablt pretty good. Which means that you practice. Which means that you dedicate time to your driver and your short game. Which means you've had some lessons and worked on your weaknesses.

As someone with a 20+ handicap, who never gets lessons, spends countless hours slashing 260 yard drives into the next county and believes that using a 60* wedge for all chip shots around the green because they see that from the pros and better players instills in me the idea that perhaps they should get down to fundamentals instead of toying around with the club that is annually voted by teachers and players alike as the hardest club to master in the bag.

I'm not saying that the average weekend warrior can't hit a 60* wedge. I'm just saying that a well played 8 iron or the use of a PW will get you away with alot. Hell, I played to a 7 handicap with only a 3-PW set. Until about 5 years ago, I didn't have a wedge beyond 48*. How did I do that? I used strict fundamentals and common sense.

Then I got stupid, went through about 7 60* wedges thinking it was them and not me, before finally realizing that i was a moron in the process. It took me about 2 years before I got comfortable carrying it with me on the course, and even when I did, it got me into more trouble than what it was worth. I still play 95% of my chip shots with my 54* wedge and barely ever bring the lob out, unless I have the "perfect lie" which is once in a blue moon.

I'm not judging anyone if they carry a lob wedge or not. At the end of the day, it's the scorecard that matters. And, in my opinion, using the clubs in the bag outside the lob wedge will get it done.

R35

[SiberianDVM]

I use a driver on a lot more holes than I use a 60* wedge. Granted, both clubs have been known to give me trouble at times, but so has every other club in the bag.

I think I can probably alter the composition of my other clubs and drop a hybrid or middle iron, and add a 60* if I really needed to, but the problem is: there is no range around here where I can accurately measure the yardage I hit each club. Plus, I am not consistent enough with every swing.

[Witmaster]

I'm good with my 60* for (up-to) 65 yard shots max. i rarely ever have occasion to use it though. Only once in recent months was pulling this club even warrented. I had a terrible lie with a 9 ft evergreen between me and the pin. I was about 8 feet in front of the tree and the green was about 30 yards away. I decided to use the lob and hit a perfect shot over the tree to within 30 inches of the cup. I think that was about the only time in my life I have hit that club that well in a situation where I needed to.

The only other time I routinely use that club is when me and a buddie are drinking and we bet each other who can hit the most practice balls over the house from 10 feet away

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Rockford35

....the club that is annually voted by teachers and players alike as the hardest club to master in the bag.

This is probably the main reason I started this thread. I'm betting without looking that I know what they voted to be the second hardest to master, especially for mid to high handicaps. I really actually agree with this philosophy to a degree. I guess a big part of the analogy is that it really makes no difference the calibur of player. The big issue is having a strong mental game and knowing when to keep the club in the bag, and realize other viable options. In the same sense, probably the biggest key for mid to high handicaps in learning course management is learning when to keep the driver in the bag and realizing more vialble option to reach a green in two. I can say that for me the process was almost identical, but I also realize that there are certain things on the rounds I play that can only be accomplished by one of the two clubs.

Originally Posted by Rockford35

Short game and putting get you good scores, not your driver.

... and this is one of the main reasons I feel that not limiting your options in the short game, regardless of index, is important. I think your short game is exactly what gets you good scores, on the flip side at least in my case, the driver may be the easiest way to sabatage a good short game. I guess I really just feel it is much easier to practice with a LW and accomplish desired results. I can do it in my yard, garage or basement in the winter and even my Living room if I want to antagonize my dog. It is difficult to do the same with my driver and see real results.

[Bama Duffer]

It's an interesting question. I've got a good friend I'm trying to convince to take up the game (I guess cause his three daughters aren't frustration enough). We've played together a couple of times and a few rounds back, I happened to have a 60* wedge in my bag. He borrowed it on a couple of holes. Turns out he hits it consistenly better than any other club. He's used it a couple of other rounds since then and he continues to hit the 60* well.

I either blade it or hit three feet.

[ezra76]

But I'm glad I had it today. I had to use it twice. Both shots were right up against the bank of very steep elevated greens. The ground was too soft and the lie too fluffy for the bounce of my SW. Both shots turn out well, on the green and putting. I get in trouble with the driver but I weigh my options a lot more than I used to. I pick my misses. I hit a fade whenever I have the room. If I could hit my 3wood better I would use it. I have a better chance of getting a solid shot with the driver though. In my opinion if you play driver as much as I do, you have to have a 95% go to shot as I do with the fade. Whether it's straight, draw or fade-you can't just take a big ol' swing on every par 4 or 5 and hope it goes right down the middle.

[dave.]

The driver is easier to hit now than it ever was.I learnt using a 200cc persimmon driver with XS shaft,these new drivers are a piece of piss to hit in comparison,there is absolutely no reason why even a beginner shouldn't stick with one.Regardless of handicap,who hasn't stood on a range and just bombed the balls way past what Greg Norman was hitting only 20 years ago? Did Greg Norman have a 60* wedge? No,he didn't.

the lob wedge on the other hand requires a very consistent strike,far more so than a 460* driver.

A beginner should find a 3 and 4 iron harder to hit than a 460* driver,and should find an open face on a 53* wedge far more consistent than a lob wedge.

Forget the lob wedge,its a specialist club for certain COURSES,not certain players.Its needed for certain pin positions and when the rough is at tour standards very close to the green.Plus,who is good enough to control the spin? I can stop a 53 dead,so do I need the additional variable of increased backspin? No one needs backspin,you just need to stop the ball,thats it.Backspin is for players that have the ability to control it.Like the worlds best players.

A lob wedge to many players is a feel good club.It makes the player feel great to have a bag of wedges,makes them feel like a pro.Well if I ever see an old guy turn up on the tee in the club knockout carrying one rusty old pw,I cack myself,the guy will give me a good game.My shiney 3 wedges look a bit forlorn everytime he stiffs it.

You will get far better use out of a hybrid for the gap between the 15* club and the 3 iron.

[Matthew_22]

I think the Log wedge has its uses, but a SW or even PW can do the same things. Even if you do need to hit a shot almost vertical, you can just tilt the clubface a bit. So I agree that any player with a double digit handicap has no need for a LW.

As for the driver, that is the part of my game that lets me down the most. While almost all golfers depend on it, I also think that you can play just as well if not better by taking it out of your bag. I am currently experimenting with using different clubs off the tee just to increase my accuracy.
I think any player with a double digit handicapp who is serious about improving their game would do well to leave the driver at home every so often, and rely more on accuracy rather than distance.

[EnglishGolfer]

Dave has a good point about the ease of drivers to hit nowadays (even if it isn't very eloquently put ). I think if beginners can resist temptation to try and whack a driver until they get to low 20's h'cap wise then it would unlimately be beneficial to them as they would realise there is more to the game than trying to break the 300 yard barrier. I have never broken par with my gross score but I have shot level a couple of times and one of those was without my woods which I had forgotten, so distance isn't everything.

I think as long as you have a decent set of clubs that you don't need anything other than the PW and SW that you get with them until you get very good. I play off 5 now and still only use my Mizuno Pro II SW & PW as they can be opened/closed to play almost any shot. I do have a 64 degree wedge that cost me £20 but i bought it mainly for chipping in my back garden which is very small as there is no need for it on the courses of north west England.

Years ago people used to be able to manufacture shots from 14 clubs now it seems you have to have a club for every shot! Whats that about?

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by dave.

Forget the lob wedge,its a specialist club for certain COURSES,not certain players.

I think this is a very valid point. I would have to be real honest, if I were forced to choose between my LW and Driver on my home course, I would part ways with my driver. Although prior to moving up here, I took the LW out of my bag simply because it was not warranted and there were very few occasions where it helped me out over another club.

On your other comments, I seriously agree with the issue regarding generating spin. Although I generate more spin on a 3/4 shot simply because I play it back in my stance. I really only concentrate on using the added loft of the club to stop the ball (as opposed to say my 56* or 52*), and not trying to generate more spin. Personally I think I generate more spin with my 52* of the three, but it is usually because I do not have to consider the loft of the shot.

Although I think the 460cc drivers are easier to hit, I don't think they really do alot to control the major flaws that mid to high handcappers have. They may hit a longer distance because of the ability to make good contact, but in most cases that only makes for a wider shot if you slice the ball. I'm not sure I would be any more likely to keep a 460cc driver in my bag if I hit a slice. Personally I seem to generate a lot more spin with my G2 over my old Firesole, although I do generate more distance a larger percentage of the time. If whether one would keep a driver in the bag is a matter of whether they hit the ball straight and it is easier to hit the sweet spot is a mute point. I still see an awful lot of people on the course, and on the web that generate an awful lot of spin with their drivers.

Again if you have a need for a driver and hit it well and play off a 20+, obviously it belongs in your bag. Then again If you have a need for a LW and hit it well........

Personally I would feel more like a pro if I could hit my driver consistently 300 yards down the center of the fairway, than being able to use 4 wedges cosistantly. Then again, with the predictability of the way I control my driver, you will not see me pulling my LW to replace it with a second driver anytime soon. I'm guessing on any given day I would generate the same spin on a fade or draw biased driver.

[Silver]

Originally Posted by Rockford35

Short game and putting get you good scores, not your driver.

R35

Jayhawk, I'm with you on this one.

Rock, the quote above, as true as it is to a certain extent, it's missing the most crucial part - "...but nothing PREVENTS you from getting good scores as much as your driver"

Seriously, if you're five off the tee by going OB or trying to find balls in the trees (as many of us are prone to doing when using a driver), you're already eliminating your ability to score well. I am, apparently, one of the blessed few who is able to play a 60* reasonably well despite being a shit golfer. Maybe I don't play it exactly the way it's meant to be played, but it fills a gap left if I just try to use an opened up 56* or even 58* and allows me to get the ball closer more often than if I don't use it.

My driver? I'm in the fairway a lot more often and in a position to be going for pars or birdies more often if I don't use than if I do.

A driver may be an easier club to hit nowadays than before, but if you have trouble with it, it still causes more disastrous results than a pooched 60* wedge shot more often than not (in my estimation, not backed up quantifiably by any means).

I'd rather have a couple of good hybrids and a full range of wedges when my driver's being a bitch than have a huge driver and be lacking in wedge versatility.

That's just me.

[Rockford35]

So hit a 3 wood. However, if you're in the deep rough and you need that 60* wedge, only you blade it 450 yards into the trees, what's saving your bacon now?

The driver is the most overrated club in the bag. If you can't hit it, don't.

R35

[chemboy2]

i quite often leave the dirver in the bag. i don't want to leave it at home because i want it to know what it's missing. it needs to see me pull other clubs out of the bag in order to know it is being punished.

i actually just got back from the range after hitting my new 2nd driver. okay, so to the naked eye it looks a lot like a v-steel t/s 13* but you can bet this will be used just as often (if not more so) than my driver from the tee box. in fact, today i was carrying the t/s every bit as far as my driver only much straighter and with a significantly lower trajectory.

as for the 60* wedge, i'm an open face 56* kind of guy. i work really hard at getting comfortable with hitting all types of shots with my 56*. it is by far my favorite club around the green. on approach shots though i can control my 52* a lot better than the 56* so the 56* doesn't see much grass away from the green.

[dave.]

Why do you need a 60* from deep rough from the tee? You MIGHT need one around the green,if you have the skill and experience to use one,most amateurs haven't.But from the tee? All you are doing is hacking back out and imho the 60* is harder to use to do that job,you can whiff it quite easily.Better to come in steep with a pw.