Rules debate

[P_102]

OK, I can't remember "picking a nit" recently so I thought I'd bring this one up: Last week, in playing a sand shot, I may have struck the ball twice, I honestly don't know and the results made no difference. I took the shot and felt a very slight tic on the follow through (probably only a few inches after contact) and the ball went slightly off line...just don't know.

Anyway, after thinking about it and how many sand shots are played, I'm not sure how the "Striking the ball twice", rule 14-4, would be applied. In many sand shots the club does not actually strike the ball, only sand, so if contact is made afterwards, is that striking the ball twice?
The rule states; "If a players club strikes the ball more than once in the course of a stroke...."

I would think that it still counts as striking the ball twice (if it is clearly apparent that it happened) since, in normal circumstances, there is no camera rolling to offer any feedback. However, on the tour, with cameras and technology everywhere, a player could argue that he/she did not actually strike the ball twice....

I could not find any other rules covering this..... any thoughts?

P_102

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

I'd guess that if it were to happen in a sand shot as you describe, first exploding the ball out with only the sand actually contacting the ball, followed by the clubhead striking the ball again on the upswing, it would clearly count for another stroke.

I mean, if you stub the ground behind a ball, it counts as a stroke. If you swing with intent to hit the ball, and whiff completely, that's a stroke too!

So therefore, using the sand to explode the ball out is a stroke.

[ualtim]

I would have to agree with RBB. If you swing and miss, it is a stroke. In your situation, 1 stroke for the sand shot attempt and a second stroke for a second hit would be more preferable to the 2 stroke penalty for hitting a ball in motion. In case #1, the two hit penalty, you would end up with 2 shots added to your score. In case #2, you take a stroke and then hit a ball in motion for a 2 stroke penalty you will add 3 strokes to your score or in match play you lose the hole. Reference rule 19-2.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Well, logically speaking, you could argue that you shouldn't have to count a regular sand shot if you never contact the ball. But then again, if you want to think of it in that sense, you would logically be accessed penalties for making the ball move as well as grounding your club in a sand trap prior to the stroke. So I guess you would end up about even with just taking the extra stroke. You would also find that you are accessed a stroke for a whiff under the rules, which may come into play here as well.

And then you are again faced with your original delimma, can you say for certain that your club did not contact the ball originally. Granted, it is supposed to be executed through the use of sand, but I would have to question anyone who says they are absolutely certain there is no contact on every well executed sand blast.

[dave.]

Tim Clark hit the ball 4 times from a chip only 7 yrds out,he clearly knew he had hit the ball more than once,yet didn't declare any of them

[Rockford35]

You count a stroke for the swing, plus two more for the tipped shot. This is pretty common. So basically out of the sand trap, you're guaranteed double.

R35

[Augster]

This one is quite interesting, yet very basic. And no ONE RULE governs it and the definition of the rules involved are quite ambiguous.

I'll go on record here right now and say that there is no definite answer at this time, but I'll give you what I believe to be the correct assessment.

The easy answer is just straight up Rule 14-4 where you count your stroke, add ONE penalty stroke for the click, or second "hit", and play it as it lies. This, I believe is the "most correct". Lying 2 in the bunker, you double hit it out and are taking your 5th stroke with your next shot.

A STROKE is defined as: "A “stroke’’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball."

Intention of moving the ball. Not necessarily hitting it to move it.

BUT Rule 14-4 states: "If a player’s club strikes the ball more than once in the course of a stroke...."

Yes you made a stroke, but if executed correctly, you only "struck" the ball once. Thus it is not clearly defined and no decision that I read dealt with this.

The second interpretation assesses you another stroke. It is under Rule 19-2b. We have already determined that you made a STROKE. You made a forward movement with the club with the intention of moving the ball.

Rule 19-2b says: "If a competitor’s ball (your ball) is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself, his partner or either of their caddies or equipment, the competitor incurs a penalty of two strokes. The ball must be played as it lies."

So you made your stroke correctly and never actually hit the ball in the bunker. Once it was in motion, you ACCIDENTALLY DEFLECTED your ball. You are assessed 2 strokes and play it as it lies. In the bunker in 2, you take your shot, accidentally deflect, and are hitting number 6 on your next shot.

I am fairly certain Rule 14-4 was put in place to not make an accident like this so penal. Without Rule 14-4 in the books, I believe your situation would be pretty cut and dried under Rule 19-2b. All it would come down to was whether you actually felt it you contacted it after it was in motion. If you didn't, there is no penalty. If you felt you did, you assess yourself 2 strokes and play it as it lies.

As a Rules Nerd, I am quite intrigued as to your inquiry and am going to write the USGA to find out for sure whether Rule 19-2b applies, or Rule 14-4, or NEITHER. It takes them a month to get back to you usually, so don't expect an instant answer.

Great question.

[ualtim]

I agree with your reasoning Augster. 14-4 applies rather than 19-2. It is the common sense approach, but of course, the R&A and USGA do not always go by common sense

[Eracer]

I agree with your reasoning Augster. 14-4 applies rather than 19-2. It is the common sense approach, but of course, the R&A and USGA do not always go by common sense

Great question! Rule 14-4 only penalizes you if you "strike" the ball twice during the course of a stroke. In a normal shot from the sand you make a stroke but do not "strike" the ball. So there is no opportunity to be penalized under Rule 14-4. Rule 19-2 covers it.

[Augster]

As I promised, I asked the USGA and they just got back to me about this today.

Here was my email. I went on the assumption that "I" had actually felt the double-hit :

Dear Sirs:

I have a semi-tough question and need a ruling, and would like to see a
decision if need be.

I am in a bunker. A correctly played bunker shot doesn't hit the ball
at all. I make my stroke, hit behind the ball, and the ball comes out
softly. Unfortunately, I contact the ball on my through-swing ever so
slightly.

I have only HIT the ball ONCE to my knowledge. Here is my thinking.

The easy answer is just straight up Rule 14-4 where you count your
stroke, add ONE penalty stroke for the click, or second "hit", and play
it as it lies. This, I believe is the "most correct". Lying 2 in the
bunker, you double hit it out and are taking your 5th stroke with your
next shot.

A STROKE is defined as: "A "stroke'' is the forward movement of the
club
made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball."

Intention of moving the ball. Not necessarily hitting it to move it.

BUT Rule 14-4 states: "If a player's club strikes the ball more than
once in the course of a stroke...."

Yes you made a stroke, but if executed correctly, you only "struck" the
ball once. Thus it is not clearly defined and no decision that I read
dealt with this.

My second thought is to use Rule 19-2b. We have already determined that
I made a STROKE. I made a forward movement with the club with the
intention of moving the ball.

Rule 19-2b says: "If a competitor's ball (my ball) is accidentally
deflected or stopped by himself, his partner or either of their caddies
or equipment, the competitor incurs a penalty of two strokes. The ball
must be played as it lies."

So I made my stroke correctly and never actually hit the ball in the
bunker. Once it was in motion, I ACCIDENTALLY DEFLECTED my ball. I am
assessed 2 strokes and play it as it lies. In the bunker in 2, you take
your shot, accidentally deflect, and are hitting number 6 on your next
shot.

I am fairly certain Rule 14-4 was put in place to not make an accident
like this so penal. Without Rule 14-4 in the books, I believe the
situation would be pretty cut and dried under Rule 19-2b.

So which is it? Rule 14-4 where I've only taken 2 shots or Rule 19-2b
where I've taken 3?

Or the least likely, I am assessed NO penalty strokes as I only hit the
ball once, which I am allowed. I doubt this highly.

Thanks very much for your time and effort regarding this inquiry.

And here is the USGA's response:

(Oh shit. At the end of the email it says the ruling is for my personal information and may not be disclosed by email or internet posting. What the ****? Since I ask them questions 2 or 3 times a year it seems, posting in a public forum like this might put me on their shit-list, and I don't want that. So, I shall paraphrase. It is much tougher to paraphrase because I can't just C&P. )

Begin paraphrase:

"They say when playing a shot in a bunker, the player's club enters the sand and moves the sand, and the sand touching the ball, and the ball all at the same time, with the clubface in contact with the sand, and the sand in contact with the ball. Because of the force of the shot, at some point the ball and the sand in contact with the clubface will separate.

If you hit the ball while the sand is still trapped between the ball and the clubface, then there is no penalty. If the sand had separated from the ball and clubface, then the clubface hits the ball, you are in breach of Rule 14-4."

End Paraphrase.

In all cases, it would either be a breach of Rule 14-4, or not. So AT MOST you are taking 1 penalty stroke. Basically it's a double-hit. At no point does Rule 19-2b come into play. They end up saying it's a judgement call really. If you get that sick feeling in your stomach that you committed a double-hit, you most likely did.

But, you will only take your one penalty stroke. So if you are in a greenside bunker in two, take your swing and double-chuck it, you are putting for 5 on the next shot. Rule 19-2b does not come into play, so putting for a 6 doesn't either.

I hope this clears it up. I am quite sorry about not doing a direct C&P. I have never seen that caveat at the bottom of their emails before. But I don't want to anger them if they do a google for Rule 14-4 and this post comes up. LMAO!