Golf rules questions

[SiberianDVM]

I have tried to read the rules of golf, but that's worse than trying to read legalese. The guy I played with yesterday thinks he's a real stickler for the rules, but I don't agree with some of his calls. These are some of the situations I found myself in yesterday, please tell me what should have been my penalty:

1- Tee shot on a dogleg right par 4 with lake in the crook of the dogleg: teeshot goes in the drink. I say go to drop area close to lake, with 1 shot penalty, now hitting 3. He says must hit from tee, now hitting 3.

2-Tee shot on short par 4 hits cartpath, bounces high & lands next to green, but also next to 8" horizontal plastic pipe used to pump water from one pond to another. My backswing is obstructed by immovable manmade object. He says play as lies or take drop and 1 stroke penalty. I say free drop.

3-My worst shot of the day. Tee shot s*****s and lands on green of adjoining hole. Luckily we were first ones out. I say I have right to play it as it lays, pulling out my 5 wood. He says I must remove ball from green and take 1 stroke penalty. We compromise as I threaten him with 5 wood: I remove ball to fringe, no penalty, and hit the best 5 wood over trees I have ever hit.

Help!!! Penalty shots are killing me!!!

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

I'm no rules expert but I think--

1 -- Take drop within two club lengths from ball's point of entry into the hazard area.

2 -- I'm unsure about this one, but I think you get relief of one club length no closer to the hole.

3 -- I think I'll try to avoid hitting onto another green. I think you probably can play from it, but seeing how you could chunk a divot out, I think the most sensible thing to do is drop somewhere off the green, and no closer to the hole.

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

I think I've got the answer to the wrong putting green question:

25-3 Wrong Putting Green
a. Interference
Interference by a wrong putting green occurs when a ball is on the wrong putting green.
Interference to a player's stance or the area of his intended swing is not, of itself, interference under this Rule.
b. Relief
If a player's ball lies on a wrong putting green he must not play the ball as it lies. He must take relief, without penalty, as follows:
The player must lift the ball and drop it within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief.The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When dropping the ball within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the wrong putting green and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green. The ball may be cleaned when lifted under this Rule.
Penalty for Breach of Rule:

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

So the correct answer to 3 is that you get relief from the green and without penalty. You can even clean your ball.

[Pa Jayhawk]

1 would depend on how the hazard was marked. If it was marked yellow you would either retee for 3 or drop behind the hazard hitting 3. More than likely it was a lateral hazard (red marker), you can drop where the ball crossed in and hit 3.

2 is a man made obstruction entitling you to a free drop.

I think RBB gave the rule for 3

[SiberianDVM]

2 -- I'm unsure about this one, but I think you get relief of one club length no closer to the hole.

I don't see how this would help. The pipe was about 8' long. One club length would not get me to either end. Can't go closer? The pros appear to do it all the time when they hit near the grandstands. Further away would put me on the other side of the pipe, having to hit over, under it. Another impossible shot.

I finally gave up arguing with him on this one; choked way down on a sandwedge, hit it short into a bunker, hit it out, and 1 putted for par. You should have seen his face.

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

I think when you take relief from the obstruction, you determine it from a point that enables complete relief but no closer to the hole. So in this case, if I understand correctly, you could move to an end of the pipe, then take the club length distance.

[SiberianDVM]

So in this case, if I understand correctly, you could move to an end of the pipe, then take the club length distance.

OK, that sounds reasonable. Thanks.

As you can tell, my teeshots don't always go where I intend.

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

Originally Posted by SiberianDVM

OK, that sounds reasonable. Thanks.

As you can tell, my teeshots don't always go where I intend.

Let's wait til we get someone more familiar with the rules on that, though. I'm looking at the rules, and I'm thinking I'm making decent sense of them. Here's what the USGA is saying:

Originally Posted by USGA

Q. In proceeding under Rule 24-2b(i) or Rule 25-1b(i), the Definition of “Nearest Point of Relief” provides that to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used from the original position had the obstruction or condition not been there. What is the procedure if a player is unable physically to determine the nearest point of relief because, for example, that point is within the trunk of a tree or a boundary fence prevents the player from adopting the required address position?

A. The nearest point of relief in both cases must be estimated and the player must drop the ball within one club-length of the estimated point, not nearer the hole.

But if I understand what that's saying, the point is to find the nearest point of complete relief that's no closer to the hole. Also, you should use the club you intend to swing with in this case, although they also state that if after you make your drop, you determine that you need to use another club, you may use another club.

[huggystyle]

I would refuse to play with that guy again he sounds like a right ***hole. The second one about the water pump; if it were with the people I play with on a saturday & sunday morning they would have given me free relief, your out there to have fun, your not on the pga tour. I think you were entitled to a free drop anyway.

[SiberianDVM]

He's not obnoxious about it, just argumentative. And he doesn't cheat too much. And I can still beat him like a drum, so it's good for my ego.

[Augster]

Holy shit, has your "friend" ever even opened the rule book?

I'm answering these without reading any previous replies, AND without opening the book....

1. Almost all water hazards are considered water hazards? (Huh? ) It is really, really, really, really, REALLY rare that you would have a body of water staked, on the inside of the body, with white stakes denoting out of bounds. If that WERE the case, your pal would be correct. I highly doubt this as I don't recall ever seeing this.

That said, ANY body of water on a golf course is considered a water hazard at least. In order to be a "LATERAL WATER HAZARD" it would actually have to be staked with red stakes, or say so on the card. The only difference is where your drop may be. With a normal water hazard, YELLOW STAKES or NO STAKES, your drop has to be point of entry lined up with the stick and drop anywhere on that line going backwards as long as you don't drop on a green, out of bounds, or in a hazard. This option is ALWAYS there. You always have to keep SOME PART OF THE HAZARD between your ball and the pin.

If the water was staked with red stakes, denoting a lateral water hazard, you would have the additional option of taking two club lengths from the point of entry and dropping there.

2. If your backswing, or your stance, is interfered with by a manmade immovable obstruction, you get complete relief, plus a club length without a penalty stroke. So you find your point of nearest relief, and your drop has to be within a club length of that point, no nearer the hole.

The only exception to this is when the immovable obstruction defines out of bounds. So if your ball comes up to rest against a border fence that defines the out of bounds on your course, you're just screwed. Play it as it lies, or take an unplayable. Since this drainage pipe most likely didn't define out of bounds, I'm sure your ruling was correct.

3. In the RULES OF GOLF, if your ball comes to rest on an incorrect putting green you CAN NOT play it as it lies. It HAS TO BE MOVED to the nearest point of complete relief, no closer to the hole, and dropped within a club length. This is done without penalty of course.

Buy your $3 copy of the Rules of Golf and keep it in your bag for just such occasions. I don't have the rules memorized, at least in so far as what rule is what, but I can find them quick enough. All the search words are in the back of the book. In example 1, I would look up water hazard. IN #2 I would look under Obstruction. Example 3 would be tougher, but you'd find it most likely under playing the ball as it lies.

[Augster]

Originally Posted by SiberianDVM

I don't see how this would help. The pipe was about 8' long. One club length would not get me to either end. Can't go closer? The pros appear to do it all the time when they hit near the grandstands. Further away would put me on the other side of the pipe, having to hit over, under it. Another impossible shot.

I finally gave up arguing with him on this one; choked way down on a sandwedge, hit it short into a bunker, hit it out, and 1 putted for par. You should have seen his face.

The point of complete relief could be almost ANYWHERE on the course, no closer to the hole. BUT THERE IS THEORETICALLY ONLY ONE POINT that is your NEAREST POINT OF COMPLETE RELIEF.

All you have to do is find that relief. Sometimes the nearest point is only an inch over. Like if you, as a rightie, have your ball end up on the far left side of a cart path. Your nearest point off the cart path is only an inch or two to the left of your ball. Then you get a club length to drop from there.

For large areas of casual water, your nearest point may be 30+ yards away. Usually up the hill. The point is to find the NEAREST POINT. In the casual water example, I'll sometimes have to find two or 3 points that would be playable, put a tee in, then pace it off from by ball to find which is actually the NEAREST. The rules don't say a near point of relief, they say the NEAREST and always, no closer to the hole.

The RULES are there to help you, not hurt you. Common sense is the main driving factor behind the Rules, but still, the R&A and USGA get it wrong in a few places in my opinion. For the most part though, your common sense will be correct more often than not.

[Slingblade61]

I want all of you to know that I read the the topic, saw that Augster had weighed in so I read the original post and scrolled right to Augster's reply.

No need to waste my time with a bunch of pretenders.

[Silver]

Originally Posted by Slingblade61

I want all of you to know that I read the the topic, saw that Augster had weighed in so I read the original post and scrolled right to Augster's reply.

No need to waste my time with a bunch of pretenders.

I was thinking the exact same thing!

Dude knows his shit.