Do you agree??

[David B]

Originally Posted by Bravo

OK let's accept your logic. Keep the courses the same length they are and let manufacturers continue to produce hotter balls - no limit. Battle back against the increasingly longer balls by tightening fairways and increasing/enlarging bunkers.

So let's extrapolate for about 20 more years....balls keep getting longer and longer and course lengths at these classic courses which have no room to move stay the same.

Given your suggestion that the fairways be narrowed and the roughs grown higher - to continue this strategy would be narrower and narrower fairways. 30 yards too wide? Go to 20. Balls getting longer and longer? Go to a 15 yard wide fairway...heck maybe that is too wide to keep the scores where they should be. Go to a ten yard fairway. 6 inch rough not penal enough? Go to a foot. Keep a player from advancing the ball more than 10 yards...

Well, the only thing I'll mention is this little law called 'physics'... there's not much realistically that ballmakers can do to change the characteristics of the ball to increase distance within the current rules.

When a ballmaker creates a golfball, there's several different things they must adhere to:
1. Size
2. Weight
3. Durability
4. Compression factor (distance)
5. Spin rate

And those are just the few that I can name off the top of my head, and a lot of them are a tradeoff when it comes to staying within the size/weight/distance factors. The reason a lot of the recent 'long distance' balls were nonconforming had nothing to do with how far they actually travelled, but had to do with the weight of the ball... they were too heavy.

Honestly, I don't see much more on the development side of a golf ball except for possibly multi-core balls, and those with different covers that increase durability while maintaining spin rate.

Besides, like dave said, 99% of golf equipment nowadays is simply marketing hype... there's not much differentiating equipment today from one another, or from equipment from 3-5 years ago either... so I think Rockford35's idea works well with making courses more strategic, which is the approach I'd take... if you're going to muscle that ball 300-350 yards, then be prepared for the risk, because you'll probably be safer hitting shorter.

[David B]

Originally Posted by DouginGA

Having reread the article and thread I would ask you all to consider what a "one ball" concept would do to shottalk. No more rants and raves about what a great ball the pro V1 is?

Well, what if the Pro V1 is the one ball... that would be some definite affirmation for some people.

[Augster]

Originally Posted by DouginGA

No more rants and raves about what a great ball the pro V1 is?

Pro V1 WOULD BE the ball that was chosen.

All they really have to do is make the ball 1/32nd bigger, or even more, 1/16th. Ever play with a Top Flite Magna? It didn't go anywhere because it was so f'n big. There is a reason the R&A/USGA set a minimum size a legal ball can be.

But, as stated before, the distance revolution is basically over. They've lengthened the courses and it's done. After all the leaps and bounds on the PGA tour in the late 90's, early 2K's, the average distance has increase 1 whole yard each of the last 3 years. THREE YEARS!

Corey Pavin has had the exact same yardage gain in the past 5 years as John Daly. The fact that he's 5 foot nothing and has a slow swing limits his total distance. His tech gain though has been the same in yards as the top hitters.

The pros made the leap to the new balls, they got in shape (somewhat), and they use launch monitor data exclusively to select drivers. The drivers have been limited. No ball will ever tramp off the face better than .830 from hereforth. The length of the club has been limited to 48".

If the current pace keeps up, your average pro will be 10 yards longer, 10 years from now. It's not like earlier in the century where your average pro could be 10+ yards longer NEXT WEEK! All the limits have been reached.

Make the ball a hair or two bigger. If ALL the balls are bigger, nobody will notice the difference except physics. Then limit either the spin rate or the total distance off a robot that swings like a pro.

[bdcrowe]

Guys... Everyone is acting as if technology is the sole factor in an increase in distance. Look at the average tour pro today and compare them to those of 20 years ago. They are in shape, working out, have taken lessons since age 4, have a golf coach, short game coach, psychologist, clubs fitted to the Nth degree... Guys are just stronger, fitter and more prepared these days.

As has already been pointed out, there is already a distance limit on the legality of golfballs. What do you want to try next? Put a legal limit on how often a player may work out? Limit how strong, tall, muscular or flexible they can be? How mentally prepared? How much time spent on the launch monitor?

Further, let's limit the amount of agricultural advancements allowed to seep into golf course design. The fairway grasses have evolved into those that can be mowed down to fractions of an inch, which make those of 20 years ago look like clover. This allows the pros more roll and much more spin. Further, take the greens back to the quality of 20 years ago, which were shaggy and caught golfballs like nets. Holding a green with a 5 iron back then was like holding it with an 8 iron now. You can't penalize the pros for getting closer to the green when they actually HAVE to get closer to stick it on those linoleum greens.

Let's also take iron lofts to what they once were. People get bent because pros are hitting mid-irons in where you used to have to have long irons. Well, mid-irons (loft-wise) aren't far from what long-irons used to be. They just have different numbers on the soles.

Guys... The game has eveolved in all aspects, from players to instruction to equipment. Go back to course set-up and penalize bad shots like they used to.

[Dave Ireland]

Originally Posted by bdcrowe

Guys... Everyone is acting as if technology is the sole factor in an increase in distance. Look at the average tour pro today and compare them to those of 20 years ago. They are in shape, working out, have taken lessons since age 4, have a golf coach, short game coach, psychologist, clubs fitted to the Nth degree... Guys are just stronger, fitter and more prepared these days...........

Hummm ... Howya BD ..... I agree in principle with the level of fitness these days, here's an little interesting story from my time over in Carnoustie Scotland.

The #6 hole very tough par 5, was renamed Hogan's Alley in 2002 I think, in memory of the extremely tough line Hogan took on his drive between the bunkers and the OB - on 1 occasion he drove into the bunker which was at the time an incredible 265 yards into a prevailng wind, anyways long story short, to commemorate the renaming a host of modern day golfers using a 1953 driver and a 1.62 golf ball drove off the tee. Veejay smacked it 220 yards - Monty feathered it just over 200, the longest drive on the day was just over 250 yards.

Padraig Harrington gave a golf clinic here last year and was asked about his increase in driver distance , his mantra was better off being 30 yards longer and in the rough than straight down the fairway - which sorta bears out the modern thinking of pro golf as a distance + pitching game as Fred Funk detailed at The Masters.

[David B]

to commemorate the renaming a host of modern day golfers using a 1953 driver and a 1.62 golf ball drove off the tee. Veejay smacked it 220 yards - Monty feathered it just over 200, the longest drive on the day was just over 250 yards.

Well, in all fairness, Hogan had years and years of practice with these two pieces of equipment and probably was a much better ballstriker with them. Most of the guys participating in the event probably had no experience with either.

I'm sure if you took Nascar drivers of today and put them into an early 50's racecar and told them to race against records from yesteryear, they'd probably have just as much luck.

Of course you have to take into account as well that Hogan was probably the best ballstriker to ever play the game, and combine that with favorable conditions on that fateful day, and you get the result that sits in the record books.

Here's a nice link that shows just how much technology is affecting the game of golf, using statistical graphs: Technology in Golf: Past, Present and Future

While technology has helped average driving distance in the past 25 years, no other statistic has shown any significant change in that same amount of time. If technology were the holy grail, you'd think that overall golf scores would drop, GIR's would be higher, fairway hits would increase, there would be peace in the Middle East, etc.

[dave.]

Monty and Vijay are both old enough to have learned the game with the small ball and persimmon,so there is no excuse for such shyte shots.Hogan hits those drives within feet of each other,and flirted with the oob,so he had the best route to the green.They should be in we of Hogan,and at the same time a little embarassed

[Dave Ireland]

Originally Posted by David B

........While technology has helped average driving distance in the past 25 years, no other statistic has shown any significant change in that same amount of time. If technology were the holy grail, you'd think that overall golf scores would drop, GIR's would be higher, fairway hits would increase, there would be peace in the Middle East, etc.

Which is in essence the nub of this thread ... as driving distance got longer the course layout had to change to compensate ... so we get longer holes, narrower f/ways, redesigned greens racing 11-13 on the stimp.

Just to clarify Hogan drove into the wind .. but in saying that you make a good point in comparable performance from different eras ... debates rage regarding would the best team from a certain era beat a current team ... and in comparing we tend to envisage the modern team or player stepping back in time to compete - now if we were to view it as Hogan coming from the 50's to play and have current technology made available to him you might in fairness have a different perspective of the outcome ..

[David B]

Originally Posted by dave.

Monty and Vijay are both old enough to have learned the game with the small ball and persimmon,so there is no excuse for such shyte shots.Hogan hits those drives within feet of each other,and flirted with the oob,so he had the best route to the green.They should be in we of Hogan,and at the same time a little embarassed

Well, the point I was making was that although some of these guys may have learned with this equipment, how many of them actively play with them?

Hogan was a great golfer, so you'll get no argument from me there... and the fact that he was as good of a golfer with the old equipment as the newer golfers are with computer-aided technology at their disposal just shows his greatness even more.

However, in a way this also proves the point many are making in this thread, that there will always be professionals that can hit long drives, so simply lengthening golf courses is not the answer to the problem.

IMO, the answer is to make long drives more of a calculated risk, rather than leaving a wide-open fairway. Lengthening holes also puts shorter driving individuals at a disadvantage, meaning they'll be more reliant on technology, rather than less reliant... kind of the chicken and egg scenario.

Just to clarify Hogan drove into the wind .. but in saying that you make a good point in comparable performance from different eras ... debates rage regarding would the best team from a certain era beat a current team ... and in comparing we tend to envisage the modern team or player stepping back in time to compete - now if we were to view it as Hogan coming from the 50's to play and have current technology made available to him you might in fairness have a different perspective of the outcome ..

Well, by 'favorable conditions' I meant favorable 'launch' conditions... meaning he got a solid hit with a good trajectory that just bored through the wind and resulted in the 265 yard drive. I truly would like to see how Hogan golfed with today's technology... I'm sure he'd be pretty much unstoppable... Tiger who?

[DouginGA]

Originally Posted by bdcrowe

They are in shape, working out... Guys are just stronger, fitter and more prepared these days.

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uh huh

[David B]

LOL... Daly just puts all his weight into it... picture a freight train hitting a car.

[DouginGA]

Actually I should be nicer. My gut size is approaching his but he hits it about 125 to 150 yards farther.

[ualtim]

I agree Bravo. Same argument we have had a few different ways in a few different posts. There has to be a limit somewhere. I also agree with Rock in that we have to find ways to keep current course from being over powered by using narrower fairways and increased rough.

A little bit of both K-dog.......

[dave.]

Tim Herron just won,and he isn't working out.

Its a simple problem,course obstacles were placed when drives went 50 yards shorter,so golf today is reduced to drive and pitch for anything around 6500 yards.They will need a simple solution,because courses can't keep getting longer

[DouginGA]

Just to keep this in perspective- this discussion is not new:

"In order to preserve the balance between power and the length of holes and in order to retain the special features of the game, the power of the ball should be limited."
-The Royal & Ancient Rules of Golf Committee recommendation in 1919

You could still be playing with a wound rubber ball.

Came across that looking for a quote about growing up sleeping on the floor by I think chi chi rodriguez. ring any bells anyone?