Absolutely Infuriating

[Bravo]

The other 'penal bunker' thread today reminded me of something I have meant to post here for quite some time and have forgotten. Give me your opinion of this.

Our course has quite a few fairway bunkers. Being the wildass driver that I am off the tee, I get in them pretty often. As a result, I have developed a fairly decent fairway bunker skillset and have hit quite a few greens from 130-150 yards out.

Here is what really gets my goat.

There are three fairway bunkers on the golf course where - if you land in them - your recovery shot is partially blocked by tree limbs that overhang the bunker.

Take #16. There is a fairway bunker about 240 yards away from the tee on the left side of the fairway. With my right-to-left game, I have gotten in there plenty of times. You are left with a distance of 150 yards to the green - downhill. If I were on the fairway I would choose 8 iron in that situation. When in a bunker, I club one more - choosing a 7 iron.

You walk into the bunker with your 7 iron and it becomes readily apparent that if you hit the shot normally and the ball flew out with a 7 iron-type trajectory, it would fly right into a tree limb that is about 10 yards in front of the bunker. The trunk of the tree is admittedly over to the side of the bunker but it is a huge horizontal limb that blocks the way.

This is the same on #1 too.

As a result, you are left with a situation where you have to hit a 150 yard 'knockdown' shot coming out of a fairway bunker where sometimes the ball is sitting down somewhat in the sand.

I don't think it's fair. I think it is enough of a penalty to have to get out of the bunker as it is without making the golfer deal with overhanging tree limbs at the same time.

Is it just me or is this genuinely unfair?

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

I think it's a genuine design error when there are trees in between the bunker and your area of recovery. You could try bringing it to the attention of the course management.

It stems, in part, from the big tree planting craze there was on courses in the past. Many times trees were added to places they should not be added to.

If it's a case of overhanging limbs, it could be a result of years of growth slowly encroaching. In that case, the grounds crew should take the time to remove those limbs and restore the course to its more original design.

[Rockford35]

Sounds unfair.

But, you could hit the 3 wood and avoid the frustration.

Nobodies ass to kick but your own! LOL....

R35

[DaveE]

Didn't you get a new chainsaw last year?

It does seem unfair but I think alot of course have things like that. We have two fairways that have ob all the way down the left side. But, because the fairways also slant left to right you have to aim at the far left side to keep it in the fairway.

A good shot down the middle will leave you in the right rough behind some small trees. Unfair or challenging? It depends if it's me or my friends in the rough.

[MAHALLEDAY]

The course we play tuesday nights in my leage has a par 3 that has two tee boxes. If they have the tee set up on on of them the shot to the green is ocmpletly blind due to trees all up the side of the hole that, with the way they are planted the hole looks like a dog-leg left which i guess it is. The trees ae only about 10 feet high so you can hit over them easily enough but with no real idea where the flasg is when you set up it makes for a stressfull shot especially with the bunkers surrounding the green.

[Bravo]

Originally Posted by Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

I think it's a genuine design error when there are trees in between the bunker and your area of recovery. You could try bringing it to the attention of the course management.

It stems, in part, from the big tree planting craze there was on courses in the past. Many times trees were added to places they should not be added to.

If it's a case of overhanging limbs, it could be a result of years of growth slowly encroaching. In that case, the grounds crew should take the time to remove those limbs and restore the course to its more original design.

You are pretty accurate here...

The course has had two major renovations: 1989 and 2001. In the 1989 renovation, these bunkers were added where there was nothing but grass there before. Then...over the years since then, these tree limbs have indeed grown and gotten bigger.

But I have been frustrated when I have mentioned it to my playing partners. When I point it out and ask the question straight up (Is this really fair or good design?) they just shrug their shoulders and mumble, "Well that's just the way it is"...

My reply to them is, "If you were designing a New course and getting ready to open it for the first time, would you ever have it this way?" I think - hell no you wouldn't. People would look at your design and think you were screwed up....

[Rockford35]

I think Dave has it here, tho.

Would it be a hazard if you could easily hit a 3/4 7 iron out to the green?

This stems to my point about PGA courses and their length. If Hazards are hazrads (which means only a miraculous shot will save you from there) and rough is exactly that, rough, you'd see scores decrease.

Just as when you hit the driver instead of the 3 wood being agressive, it now costs you strokes.

It may seem cruel, but I don't particularily see that as a design flaw. Should all bunkers be like that? Of course not. But you'll remember that for next time. Perhaps your course there is just ahead of the game and where it should be.

R35

[DaveE]

Originally Posted by Bravo

My reply to them is, "If you were designing a New course and getting ready to open it for the first time, would you ever have it this way?" I think - hell no you wouldn't. People would look at your design and think you were screwed up....

You're right, a new course wouldn't be designed that way. Our course was built back in the 60s so some of the trees that were tiny back then are now towering oaks.

Over the last 12 months they've done alot of tree trimming in areas where the growth has made the course too tough. Many of the trees are in the middle of the fairway and some of the old guys can't get over the trees anymore.

It seems like you're situation is similar and could be dealt with too if a few people brought it up.

[Bravo]

Originally Posted by DaveE

Didn't you get a new chainsaw last year?

It does seem unfair but I think alot of course have things like that. We have two fairways that have ob all the way down the left side. But, because the fairways also slant left to right you have to aim at the far left side to keep it in the fairway.

A good shot down the middle will leave you in the right rough behind some small trees. Unfair or challenging? It depends if it's me or my friends in the rough.

That is intimidating...those holes could really get in your head.

[Pa Jayhawk]

My old course had similar circumstances. They would (and still do) let the grass grow 1-2 feet around the bunkers. They say it is to achieve a natural look. Personally, everyone at the course knows it is because they are to d@mn lazy to weedwack around the bunkers.

I don't know how many times I have taken a penalty for a lost ball simply because I hit just a few feet off a fairway bunker, green and greenside bunker

There have been several occasions where my playing partners or I have lost a ball by only making it few feet out of the bunker. You miss a green or the fairway by a foot or two and spend your 5 minutes looking for a ball 2 feet from the green, meanwhile the course backs up.

Personally they could achieve a better result by simply doing away with the sand and just let the grass grow 2 feet around the green, or in the fairway. I can accept paying the price of playing out of the sand by missing my shot by a couple feet, although taking a penalty for a lost ball is another story.

[DaveE]

Originally Posted by Bravo

That is intimidating...those holes could really get in your head.

Oh, they do.

I've gotten rid of my hook for the most part so that helps. My neighbor hits a very consistent fade that is sometimes a slice. On one of the holes he has to start the ball out over the street to get it to stay in the fairway.

You really have to have faith in your swing to do that I think.

[Bravo]

Originally Posted by Rockford35

I think Dave has it here, tho.

Would it be a hazard if you could easily hit a 3/4 7 iron out to the green?

This stems to my point about PGA courses and their length. If Hazards are hazrads (which means only a miraculous shot will save you from there) and rough is exactly that, rough, you'd see scores decrease.

Just as when you hit the driver instead of the 3 wood being agressive, it now costs you strokes.

It may seem cruel, but I don't particularily see that as a design flaw. Should all bunkers be like that? Of course not. But you'll remember that for next time. Perhaps your course there is just ahead of the game and where it should be.

R35

Well if that is indeed the case, then they have succeeded...because it takes a miracle shot to make par. When I get into one of these bunkers now, I make no attempt to hit the ball onto the green. I just try to advance it to a point where I can hit an approach shot to the green and unless I get it really close or make a long putt - I take my bogey and go on. Of course if I have another error from that point - I am taking a double...

[Bravo]

Originally Posted by FKA Pa Jayhawk

My old course had similar circumstances. They would (and still do) let the grass grow 1-2 feet around the bunkers. They say it is to achieve a natural look. Personally, everyone at the course knows it is because they are to d@mn lazy to weedwack around the bunkers.

I don't know how many times I have taken a penalty for a lost ball simply because I hit just a few feet off a fairway bunker, green and greenside bunker

There have been several occasions where my playing partners or I have lost a ball by only making it few feet out of the bunker. You miss a green or the fairway by a foot or two and spend your 5 minutes looking for a ball 2 feet from the green, meanwhile the course backs up.

Personally they could achieve a better result by simply doing away with the sand and just let the grass grow 2 feet around the green, or in the fairway. I can accept paying the price of playing out of the sand by missing my shot by a couple feet, although taking a penalty for a lost ball is another story.

Our course is private but we have a lot of members. As a result, the rough is left deliberately moderate because if it was deep, the entire golf course would back up while people searched for golf balls. The only time you will see it deep (and they can grow it deep and fast in this summer heat) is when they are having the club championship. They especially keep it fairly low for the Member-Guest too.

So, to make the course have a good deal of difficulty (it slopes at 135/136) it has a lot of bunkers both in the fairway and greenside. The greenside bunkers are sometimes really deep to the point where if you are standing on the green and a player is standing in the bunker - you cannot see them. 7-9 feet deep.

As a result, if you are going to have a low HC at our course - you must develop a pretty good bunker game because they are pretty strategically located as a result of our renovations. I get in them a lot...

[DouginGA]

Unfair? maybe it is, golf can be cruel.

Originally Posted by Bravo

because it takes a miracle shot to make par.

It would also take a miracle shot to hit out of a lake and still make par. Are water hazards unfair?

I think Rock hit the nail on the head there, sounds like the tee shot is the key. Dont fall for the sucker bet of driving hard and ending up left. For all practical purposes figure that bunker the same as a water hazard or OB.

[Loop]

I agree with Rock and DaveE on this.

You should be penalized if you get into a bunker or the rough.
Let's say for example you play in St-Andrews and get into one of those pothole fairway bunkers. The best you can do is get out of the bunker to the fairway with a wedge. If you can easily get to the green from the bunker, then why bother making such high bunkers?

And, I can't remember if it's RTJ or Pete Dye who said this, but it's the player's job to stay out of bunkers.