Tiger & Hogan

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

Originally Posted by Loop

If you see carefully, there is no supination (or quite minimal) of the wrists before and through impact. It's the cores rotation that squares the clubface...

I thought it would be interesting to try to capture the images from the swing on display at Nike.

Here is Tiger nearing impact.



Now just before hitting the ball off the tee:



Finally, after the impact with the ball.



Unfortunately, we don't really have good high resolution here, but at least to me, it looks to me like Tiger's left wrist is still bowed just before impact, and it's important to remember that hitting a driver off the tee is of some difference to using an iron to strike a ball on the ground. I wish I could find a good shot of Tiger striking an iron.

[Loop]

Uhm... His left wrist looks pretty flat to me...

You should know that Hogan ascribed the bowed left wrist at impact to promote a fade. Before his accident, he hooked the ball really bad. He'd purposely aim to the right so the would hook back to the left side of the fairway. So he thought about making fade, and made the proper arrangement.
Hogan's description is that in the downswing, before impact, his left wrist goes from flat to flex (ie bowed), which is a contradictory motion to the direction of the hands are going... All that to promote a fade

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

Yeah, I figured you'd disagree.

Yes, I know about Hogan and how he wanted to eliminate the left side by developing a consistent fade, much the same way Jimmy Demaret struck the ball.

It's not necessarily a contradictory motion, especially if you can envision an idea of the heel of the right palm driving through the bow of the left wrist, which is what Hogan would mean about going after the ball hard with both hands.

There are three basic possibilities for the hands nearing impact. The death move is pronation, the hands flipping forward. Another possibility is to maintain the wrist cock which is what Tiger is doing on this swing of the driver. And that's fine, because the loft of the driver is already quite low, and trying to increase the supination of the wrist would make it rather difficult.

The other possibility is to increase the supination which may not come naturally to us, but it isn't contradictory either.

[Loop]

Sorry RBB, I think there was a misunderstanding, as I was referring to the Hogan's bowed wrist, not the supination.
Picture this: you move your left hand to your left (before impact), and while doing so, you are flexing your wrist (ie. bowing the left wrist). You're not releasing the club at all. When you do this, at impact, the hands are WAY in front of the ball. Even if this action is desirable for shorter irons, you need to compensate by supinating the left forearm to release the club.
BTW, I've already said it, but it's the body's rotation that squares the clubface, and minimal supination.

And, flipping or scooping the wrist by extending the left wrist (and not by pronating them) is not a death move. Far from it. For instance, Vijay Singh flips the wrist through impact (and not before).

I know I'm a bad critic of what Hogan wrote. I agree mostly to what he says, as he teaches very good basics. But there are certain issues which are quite problematic. You'll get good results if you practice, but you'll need to practice harder.
And it doesn't hurt to have a different point of view of many instructors. Carl Lohren, John Jacobs, Bob Toski, Harmon, all are quite good.
If you want to see a different take on the release, check out 7 laws of the golf swing from Nick Bradley.

And good practice

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

See, I'd agree that the rotation of the body is what squares the clubface, but then I'd add that supination of the left wrist actually delays rotating the right arm over the left arm. What am I trying to describe here? If the golfer supinates the left wrist, the right arm is getting to move through the left arm, in a sense. If the right arm can't move through where the left arm is/was, then it'll come around. The degrees in variance between the three possibilities can be very, very slight.

I haven't looked at Vijay, but if he is doing what you say, it's probably because Vijay is about as talented with eye-hand coordination as they come, after all, he's a guy who can take 460cc driver and hit it off the fairway.

[dave.]

Hogan is the epitamy of the one plane swing,but......his lower half lateral slide is no longer regarded as the 'modern way.As for the supination,its vital for a clean contact,but rember,Hogan had negative bounce on pretty harsh blades by todays standards,not modern cavity backs with massive bounce (actually,his 8 iron was flat,but all his other irons had neg bounce) I think the move away from his insistence on supination has something to do with modern equipment improvements,but I could be way out with that,its just my view.he also played with shafts that were possibly XXstiff,you couldn't bend them with your arms if you tried.He also took little or no divot,again maybe this can be explained by his up bringing on hard Texas soil.

Who knows,the thing about Hogan is his mystique,his book is still talked about and revered for all the right reasons,and supination comes up all the time and Loop,I'm not sure what you mean,but the bowed left wrist is the SAME as supination,its one and the same thing.

Big Jim

Hogan would draw the ball all the time.What consumed him was a duck hook when he was nervous early in his career,but that didn't stop him intentionally drawing the ball when he needed to.

RBB

I don't agree,supination is the result of a fully loaded swing,it doesn't do anything to right arm rotation,its perfectly possible to supionate at impact and have a full release,and the arms will rotate after impact at about waist high.They are not not mutually exclusive.Supination at impact is a result of many good things in a swing.

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

Well, yeah, you have to eventually release or you're going to fall over the divot.

[dave.]

Thats not what I said,but I disagree with you re this statement you made;

"but then I'd add that supination of the left wrist actually delays rotating the right arm over the left arm."


It may do I suppose,not a fully committed swing that Hogan advocated,he hit the ball so hard what happened after impact woudl happen by itself,he made no attempt to control what happened at impact or after it,at that point,in his opinion,it was to late to do anything,everything would be happening to fast.If supination delays anything,then imo,the swing would be faulty on several points,not least of which would be a less than committed strike and a player trying to steer impact which is impossible.

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

Originally Posted by dave.

Thats not what I said,but I disagree with you re this statement you made;

"but then I'd add that supination of the left wrist actually delays rotating the right arm over the left arm."


It may do I suppose,not a fully committed swing that Hogan advocated,he hit the ball so hard what happened after impact woudl happen by itself,he made no attempt to control what happened at impact or after it,at that point,in his opinion,it was to late to do anything,everything would be happening to fast.If supination delays anything,then imo,the swing would be faulty on several points,not least of which would be a less than committed strike and a player trying to steer impact which is impossible.

I'll think about this. I suspect it may be a matter of perspective, where you've had the benefit of many years of play over my much more limited time playing. By that I mean for you now it is much more ingrained and natural-feeling, while I'm still working my way through the feel of everything.

Edit to add in a little something: It's also perhaps worth noting that I have some difficulties with my right shoulder, and that difficulty makes it much more difficult for me to adduct my right arm in normal range of motion. The only way I can soap up my right armpit in the shower is by cocking my right wrist in after adducting the shoulder as far as I can take it. I suspect sometimes this contributes to me having a much different feel for a swing than for those with normal range of motion in their shoulders.

[dave.]

Fair point.

I think its important to remember that Hogan hit the ball harder than anyone else did in his day,he was toatlly committed to EVERY strike,120%.Also,at 5'8" he generated so much power he NEEDED supination,without it he would lose all his power and add loft,he had to hit the ball low in Texas,without supination he would lose a lot of distance due to adding loft.

By the way,I have never tried to supinate at impact,I just know I do it from watching vids of my swing,supination has been a result of doing other things right,loading up power and timing it into the ball.Imho,lack of supination is usually a result of hitting from thr top,or casting,the power is lost.

[Loop]

Originally Posted by dave.

..but the bowed left wrist is the SAME as supination,its one and the same thing.

Sorry, but bowing the left wrist and supination is NOT the same.

Supination and pronation is the rotation of the forearms or wrists. When you supinate the left wrist, it is like unlocking a door with a key (counterclockwise).
Bowing the left wrist is forming an angle between the back of your left hand and the forearm. To achieve a bowed wrist, you simply flex your hand, like knocking on a door with your knuckles.

Originally Posted by dave

he made no attempt to control what happened at impact or after it,at that point,in his opinion,it was to late to do anything,everything would be happening to fast

Hogan purposely says that you should make the left wristbone protrude before impact (ie bowed...). If that isn't manipulation late in the downswing, then I don't know what it is....
Check the book if you don't believe me. There's even a nice illustration...

[Augster]

Supination is the rotation of the forearm, turning the palm UP. Basically rotation through impact which Hogan describes as he says good players make contact with the palm facing the sky, not the ground.

The way Hogan (and Herbert Warren Wind) used the word DID describe the bowing of the wrist AS Supination. When you bow your wrist toward the target (properly called Flexion) what happens to your palm? It points to the sky. When you use "extension" in your wrist, it points the palm DOWN toward the ground. Much like PRONATION, which the the act of turning your palm to the ground with your forearm.

http://www.davidlnelson.md/anatomy12.htm

I believe Hogan, and HWW, used "supinate" to mean bowed left wrist. Basically, the movement of getting your palm pointing skyward.

On page 101 they technically use the words "incorrectly":

"Every good golfer has his left wrist in this supinating position at impact. Every poor golfer does the exact reverse. As his club comes into the ball, he starts to pronate the left wrist--to turn it so that the palm will be facing down."

Now that we know Supinate/Pronate have to do with the action of the forearm and Flexion/Extension has to do with the "up and down" motion of the wrist, that verse should read:

"Every good golfer has his left wrist in this FLEXION position (while his forearm is supinating) at impact. Every poor golfer does the exact reverse. As his club comes into the ball, he starts using EXTENTION in his left wrist--to turn it so that that the palm will be facing down. (And if he's PRONATING his left forearm through impact, he doesn't know what the **** he's doing)"

Semantics really.

[charnockpro]

Lets not get away from what this thread was actually about!!, i have just downloaded off youtube the woods nike advert and THROUGH the ball the extension post strike is very hoganesque ie his right arm stays very long after impactwith the wrists hardly recocking back on themselves.

all the talk about pronation and supination through impact, it is very hard to manipulate a clubface when it is moving as fast as it is through impact and usually centrifugal force takes charge.

[Loop]

Ah! Thank you Augster!
That was really well explained

[dave.]

Well its clear we all have our own views on supination,and its clear we all second guess what he meant by it,its another idiosyncracy of the book thnat many things in it are open to interpretation.But I do disagree with the view that supination is about forearm rotation.He explains int he book about the better player ensuring he slightly delofts the irons and that the strike of a better player sounds different to a higher handicapper,both indications that he meant the bowing of the worst and the position its in at impact,not the rotation during impact.I respect the opinion but just disagree with it but I don't think it matters,what does matter is what works for you on the range and whatever your own view of supination is all that matters is it works.

I just add that when Hogan refers to the opposite of supination,he doesn't describe anything that can be regarded as the opposite of rotation,what he describes is the opposite of maintaining the bowed powerful impact position he demonstrates in the pictures