Hand movement at impact

[Qoka]

It seems to me that hand movement through impact is one of the most difficult movements to master in golf. Its rarely described in any detail in golf books and if it is, its not exactly obvious what is being said. Ben Hogan in his book " Five lessons: The mordern Fundamentals of Golf", says that his hands do not cross-over after impact and yet the related diagrams clearly show that they do. What is supposed to happen? Does anyone know?

[warbirdlover]

It is if you're thinking about it. You can "change" it by rotating your right hand to the left (right handed) to close faster or opposite if you hook. Then get the right grip pressure and FORGET about it. Too many swingthoughts = disaster.

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

Hogan's big thing with the hands was he wanted to increase the supination of the left wrist through impact, and it's not exactly what one would describe as a natural type of move. The thing is, if you supinate the way Hogan wants it to be done, your right hand can't cross over until well after impact, long after the ball is struck and flying off towards its destination.

For me, the easiest way to get a feel for this is to practice with some half swings back and half swings forward. Take the half swing back, then make the swing, driving your hands through the ball and then up to a half finish. Done properly, you'll find that at that point your hands haven't crossed over.

It's a very subtle thing to grasp though, and one of the most difficult parts to get down properly.

[Pa Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

For me, the easiest way to get a feel for this is to practice with some half swings back and half swings forward. Take the half swing back, then make the swing, driving your hands through the ball and then up to a half finish. Done properly, you'll find that at that point your hands haven't crossed over.

I can't remember where I read this, may have been Hogan's book, only I believe it was somewhere else.

You can get a pretty good feel for supination on follow through by taking your grip. Then take the thumb on your left hand (right handed) and place it over your right wrist. Then do 1/2 -3/4 swings to gain the feel.

[Loop]

RBB, this makes me wonder why you would learn a swing which is difficult to learn and even less master...
Is it because it's the modern swing that most of the pros use?
So that would mean it's the most efficient simple swing?

[Ravenous Bugblatter Beast]

Originally Posted by Loop

RBB, this makes me wonder why you would learn a swing which is difficult to learn and even less master...
Is it because it's the modern swing that most of the pros use?
So that would mean it's the most efficient simple swing?

Any good proper swing is difficult to master. It may be a question of degree of difficulty.

You can make a Hogan swing without the increased supination at impact, and simply maintain the wrist ****. And there may well be some who would find the increasing of supination easily done, almost a natural sort of move without having to think about it too much, and then working on habituating it into a swing.

I mean, if you go out and watch the majority of golfers on weekends, hardly any of them are making any effort to master a swing of good fundamentals and habits. There are so many ways for a swing to go wrong, and yet there is enough luck out there that most are deceived into thinking that lucky good shot they hit every round is the way they could hit every ball, even though their arms are yanking all over the place and their wrists are breaking over in an attempt to lift the ball into the air.

I'm working on learning Hogan's swing described in Five Lessons for a few reasons. It is a solid description of a solid swing that removes a lot of timing issues involved when a player has a two-plane swing. I know about those timing issues because I began with a two-plane swing. When I found the book in April, it made a lot of sense to me at the time because on my own I had begun taking down my two-plane habits and was re-incorporating myself into a one-plane type of swing.

[Augster]

Hogan's swing is totally efficient. The fundamentals he teaches are clearly laid out and have stood the test of time.

The MAIN thing that Hogan's book teaches is that the golf swing is totally counter-intuitive. Through impact you want the palm of your LEFT hand facing upward (suppinated). Intuitively, wouldn't you think your wrists and palms should return the club to impact in the same position as at address?

The cups of your elbows should point skyward. Intuitively, and comfortably, most folks would have the inner elbows facing each other.

Your wrists actually hinge up and down not forward and back.

Your arms should come along for a free ride. No effort. The downswing starts with the hips. Intuitively, if you wanted to hit a ball with a club that you hold with your HANDS, shouldn't you swing your hands (and arms that are connected to your hands which are connected to the club) at the ball? In baseball and tennis you do this. Of course the ball is moving and you need to be able to make fast-twitch last second movements. In golf, the ball is stationary and leaving your hands and arms out of the swing is the correct way to hit it.

The best golf grips take your thumb and index fingers (pincers) out of play in both hands. The very fingers you use to do most day to day tasks.

[Sandpiper3]

OMG.... i feel so stupid on this board.... ive asked ppl for wat words meant a few times already,and i had to lookup 3 diff words from this thread alone in the dictionnary..... i feel so bad.... (lol, ive been pretty close to failing english 4 straight years...haha).

[Qoka]

Originally Posted by Loop

RBB, this makes me wonder why you would learn a swing which is difficult to learn and even less master...
Is it because it's the modern swing that most of the pros use?
So that would mean it's the most efficient simple swing?

My feelings exactly. To be able to repeat a swing consistantly, it has to be simple. Hogans "suppinated" position is most un-natural. I wonder if it was more an idea than a physical possibility. I have never seen the suppinated position being executed by anyone anywhere. Even in Hogans book, the photos don't show it.

The other thing about Hogan is that he had an pronounced inside out to outside in swing, which must have created enormous strain on the wrist. Not only that, only a super human could do that and get anything like a consistant shot.

Maybe Hogan was super human??

[Loop]

Originally Posted by Qoka

My feelings exactly. To be able to repeat a swing consistantly, it has to be simple. Hogans "suppinated" position is most un-natural. I wonder if it was more an idea than a physical possibility. I have never seen the suppinated position being executed by anyone anywhere. Even in Hogans book, the photos don't show it.

The other thing about Hogan is that he had an pronounced inside out to outside in swing, which must have created enormous strain on the wrist. Not only that, only a super human could do that and get anything like a consistant shot.

Maybe Hogan was super human??

lol no !
He had LOT of dedication and wanted to be the best. When he was playing on the course, he was all business.
What you're talking about his swing is true though. Before his accident, he used to hook the ball like crazy, someimes way past the Out of Bounds marker. So he wanted to fade and made arrangements to his swing, especially the wrist for release.
In the downswing, if the upper body turns before the hands had time to reach down into the slot, then it will promote an out to in swing.
IMO, I think that the swing that most of the pros use, aka the modern Ben Hogan swing, is technically difficult. Getting into the slot, the plane, delaying the shoulder turn, supinating the wrist at the right moment....
What a heap of fun

[Qoka]

Originally Posted by Loop

Before his accident, he used to hook the ball like crazy, someimes way past the Out of Bounds marker. So he wanted to fade and made arrangements to his swing, especially the wrist for release.
In the downswing, if the upper body turns before the hands had time to reach down into the slot, then it will promote an out to in swing.
IMO, I think that the swing that most of the pros use, aka the modern Ben Hogan swing, is technically difficult. Getting into the slot, the plane, delaying the shoulder turn, supinating the wrist at the right moment....
What a heap of fun

Agreed. This wrist movement at impact has been the bane of my golf for many years. I finally dicided to try something different to the classic roll-over at impact. I have come up with a sort of hinge through Which creates a cup of the left wrist after impact. This totally contradicts Hogans supination method but it helps to keep the club face square for a longer part of the swing arc near impact. The improvement in my accurracy was instant and I seem to have as much distance as I did before, if not more because I am hitting consistantly in the sweet spot. I played my first round using this method on Saturday and birdied three holes, one of them being number one on the card.

Am I the first to discover this or has someone else proposed this before? Does anyone else use this technique?

[Loop]

Actually, the scooping motion is banned from Hogan and many who advocates the rollover wrist is the anti-slice solution.
Mike Austin and his teachings uses that semi slapping flicking of the wrist motion.
In the book 7 laws of the golf swing by Nick Bradley, he advocates the semi-scooping release.
Personally, I use that release as it feels more natural, and produces way more powerful and straighter shots.

[Augster]

Originally Posted by Qoka

. I have come up with a sort of hinge through Which creates a cup of the left wrist after impact.

Yuck.

Check out any pro iron swing. Every one of those guys have the supinated wrist at impact.

Check out page 102. It is illustrated clear as day.

"The left wrist begins to supinate at impact. The raised wristbone points to the target."

Re-read lesson 4 and apply it.

Page 101:
"Every good golfer has his left wrist in this supinating position at impact. Every poor golfer does the exact reverse. As his club comes into the ball, he starts to pronate the left wrist-- to turn it so the palm will be facing down."

[Qoka]

Originally Posted by Augster

Yuck.

Check out any pro iron swing. Every one of those guys have the supinated wrist at impact.

Check out page 102. It is illustrated clear as day.

"The left wrist begins to supinate at impact. The raised wristbone points to the target."

Re-read lesson 4 and apply it.

Page 101:
"Every good golfer has his left wrist in this supinating position at impact. Every poor golfer does the exact reverse. As his club comes into the ball, he starts to pronate the left wrist-- to turn it so the palm will be facing down."

Page 102 is just that, an illustration. Where is the photo? I haven't seen any photos of a supinated wrist at impact. Maybe you can tell me where to find some.

Let me clarify what I mean about my hinge technique. It happens after impact, not before, as you imply in your reference to page 101. That's a no, no.

Its the way that the follow through happens that I have changed. All the preceeding bits are exactly as per the classic swing.

[BigJim13]

I am a huge fan of Hogan and his Five fundamentals book. That being said you have to remember one thing. Hogas whole career and swing was built around 2 things. 1. being able to perform under pressure (which is good for us) and 2. not hitting the ball left EVER ( which is good for some of us). The whole supination thing was meant to not hit the ball left. If you are like me and never hit the ball left (whether it be a hook or a draw) then dont worry about supination. That being said, five fundamentals is probaly the best book of ALL time as far as set up and grip and stance go.