Snead, hogan, byron nelson

[benk]

I just posted all this stuff in 2 forums, and I thought I'd share it with anyone. I'm not trying to convert anybody, but I'm so excited right now, I just can't help myself to post this stuff.


I was just sitting watching golf channel vids [ really would recommend it to anyone ], and it had byron nelson swing analysis. I had heard he was a 2 planer, so I just decided to watch it. WHOA! In the video on there, he is a PERFECT 1 planer. I mean, everything. It was amazing how 1 plane his swing was.

And it begs the question, how could anyone say he is a 2 planer. From what I have seen from this swing, he is a PERFECT [ and I mean perfect] 1 planer. His impact position is perfect, right elbow to the side.

How is he considered a 2 planer???

I was so excited, I posted 2 more.

Watching it again, I don't see the flying elbow. I just see a elbow moved back as far as possible, a'la what Hardy emphasizes. This is really interesting to me, would love soem feedback here.

Sorry, 3rd post in 5 minutes. I'm just watching this over and over, I just can't believe it. You hear everyone talk about the best ballstriker they've ever seen, ben hogan, sam snead, trevino [ he gets into a 1 plane position at the top ], and byron nelson. They all do THE SAME things on the backswing.

I have never felt so confident in what I have decided to do in my golf swing as I do right now. It's 1:00 in the morning, and I feel as good about where I'm going in my golf game as I ever have.

Sorry that I post this, but I am just estatic beyond words. I have had some doubts because of things my pro has been telling me [ He is a harmon protege ] about how I"m wrong and all that, but it is right here in front of me. If ANYONE has any doubts about the 1 plane swing, watch those players. It's for real.

I just really believe in the 1ps ideals right now. I actually just watched a video of bobby jones swing, and was amazed there also. Even though he has many 2 plane traits, he takes it right to the inside on the takeaway, and is 1 plane till the top. I think that the 2 plane swing is a great golf swing, but right now I don't see how I could go any other way with my own game.

[SiberianDVM]

It's 1:00 in the morning, and I feel as good about where I'm going in my golf game as I ever have.

Ahem. We've all had it, sometimes for long periods of time, sometimes for just a brief moment.

It's like a fever, and it too will pass. Usually right in the middle of a decent round, leaving you with this lump of ironmongery in your hands, and pondering: WTF?

[cypressperch]

the idea of a different set of guide lines for the so-called one and two plane swings. Some believe that Mr. Hardy has not really done that much with such talk and distinctions. For example, what is the precise point at which you have a one plane swing? He writes in shades of black and white, and the reality has a lot of grey. The great golfers you have mentioned as one-planers never said anything like, "I am a one-plane swinger." They dug their games out of the dirt, and came up with what worked for them.

David Toms is considered a two-plane swinger, but he squares the club-face to the target line with his shoulder turn saying that his arms and hands are just along for the ride. According to Hardy, two-plane swingers are suppose to be more into arm-swinging rather than using big muscles to square the club. And so it goes with almost anyone. Their swings have characteristics that are both one and two plane using Hardy teaching.

The game has been around a long, long time. Only recently has there been an attempt to classify swings as one or two plane swings. Some of the differences may actually be associated with players merely prefering different postures and then swinging accordingly. The arm-swinger vs. big muscle swinger concepts that have been here for some time may do even a better job than plane in explaining the differences in swing method or type.

I personally am not that excited about Hardy. I am somewhat suspicious of those who claim to have unlocked THE SECRETof golf. Peter Jacobson seems to be around a lot of such secrets, and I am suspicious of him, though he is a pretty funny guy and intertaining. I just do not believe that Hardy has made any major break through.

Having said this, I would certainly suggest that you stick to the path you are on since it seems to be working for you. It is great to see someone with such enthusiasm and confidence. The game is both objective and subjective. Many ways to skin a cat. It does seem however that a lot of swings are looking more and more alike on the tours. Adam Scott and Tiger swing almost exactly the same. Ernie and Retief sure swing a lot alike. Thank goodness we have a few Jim Furyks lurking around, but their days may be numbered.

Best of luck to all in their pursuit of what works best for them. Sincerely, Cypressperch

[dave.]

"Some believe that Mr. Hardy has not really done that much with such talk and distinctions. For example, what is the precise point at which you have a one plane swing? He writes in shades of black and white, and the reality has a lot of grey. The great golfers you have mentioned as one-planers never said anything like, "I am a one-plane swinger." They dug their games out of the dirt, and came up with what worked for them."

I agree re Hardy,and his writings have been full of contradictions.However,I slightly disagree re plane and Hogan,he said that grasping the concept of plane was crucial to him,and a significant point in the development of his swing.He did however,measure plane in a his own way so it that regard you are spot on.Hogan did in effect say he was a one planer,just not in those words.

But plane is important to many players,they just don't realise it.A ops is imo an easier and simpler way to swing for the vast majority of players.And when you grasp the concept of turning the torso hard,and don't stop turning,and leave the hands out of the swing,hit hard with the big muslces,then you can achieve a greater level of consistency.Its not just plane,its about the rest of it I've just described albeit very succinctly.Personally I find a 2ps extremely hard,why have to rely on timing to that degree? pros do it because they have talent,lots of it,swinging with the body removes the requirement for talent,its just simple mechanics.

[charnockpro]

I agree with the school of thought that there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, i have tried most of them!!!

Yes you can analyse a swing like hogan and snead and trevino and nicklaus etc..., but the only reason they were the greatest player they could be was from playing a lot of golf and practicing a lot, and that is where the secret to everything lies "IN THE DIRT" no-one in business or any sport got anywhere without good honest hard work and patience.

Plane is important in the golf swing but this is only acheived by a consequence of good actions preceding and following it.

[dave.]

Agreed,sort of

Demaret and Walter Hagen thought practice was just wasted drinking time I admit they are hardly representative but then again you did say NO ONE ever got anywhere without hard work

[benk]

I agree that the great golfers never knew what plane they were on, and that David Tom's "feels" are probably differant, as is alot of 2 planers, than what Hardy Advertises. For the feels, you have to remember they are just that, Feels. He still does almost exactly what Hardy Emphasizes [ I'm not a 2 plane swing so I can not say that he is a perfect module ]. You can get to the same thing doing it 2 differant ways. When I was a 2 planer, I felt my body power my swing, then I changed to lettign the arms drop, because I was coming in too steep.

I also agree that most great golfers probably didn't know what plane they were on. That is what's so great about what Hardy has done. They basically found their swings through countless hours on the range, where hardy has broken it down what they did so well, so we don't have to do the same thing.

I think you are also confused about the fact that lots of the "hardy boys" do not do Hardy's one plane swing / 2 plane swing perfectly. Hardy isn't trying to make clones [ ahem, leadbetter ] of what he teaches, he's trying to do what is needed to get the ballfight wanted by the player. Which is why he never changed Peter's weight shift to the back leg, for example, because there was not need to.

You also must remember they are guildlines, its not set in stone. it is easier to do a 2 plane swing letting the hands drop and swinging with the arms for most people, as it is easier to swing more with the body with the 1 plane swing.

I don't think its the SECRET of golf, but I do think alot of what he believes in is revoulutionary. Why?? I had been going to a teacher that was a protege or Craig Harmon for a long time, and my thoughts were always "the harmons are the greatest, why doesn't everyone go to them". Then I went to an IU golf camp, and they told me things that were totaly differant than what the Harmons teach. I was confused, but he said this, but they said this?? He has split the fundementals up, so we don't have people teaching differant things all the time. Everyoen here knows they have gone to one guy and heard one thing, then gone to another and been told to do something differant. It's confusing!!

I also think the twist and throw [ which tiger got in his swing changes ] and the shallowing/steepening moves that Hardy talks about is also revoulutionary.

But everyone can think what they want. All I know is that going 1 way or another has helped every single person I've tried it on.

[charnockpro]

Ok Dave you got me on that one on a technicality, Hagen was a supremely talented player and Jimmy Demaret to a lesser sense, but as a general rule i think practice makes permanent

"I don't think its the SECRET of golf, but I do think alot of what he believes in is revolutionary. Why?? I had been going to a teacher that was a protege or Craig Harmon for a long time, and my thoughts were always "the harmons are the greatest, why doesn't everyone go to them". Then I went to an IU golf camp, and they told me things that were totaly differant than what the Harmons teach. I was confused, but he said this, but they said this?? He has split the fundementals up, so we don't have people teaching differant things all the time. Everyoen here knows they have gone to one guy and heard one thing, then gone to another and been told to do something differant. It's confusing!!"

In golf there is more than one way to swing a golf club due to many differing factors, and the greatest exponent in book form for me is "The LAWS" by TJ Tomasi and Dr Suttie, this book says there is a few differing patterns to swing a golf club which can also intertwine with other swing types creating a hybrid golf swing. It may be confusing to hear one guy say one thing and someone say something else, but that is what makes the game of golf so good

and the shallowing/steepening moves that Hardy talks about is also revoulutionary.
This is not a revolutionary thought at all it is all about being to flat and inside on the way back and then coming back onto plane i.e hale irwin, leadbetter as well may have taught a system but by god it has been a good system, Nick Price, Nick Faldo, Nick Dougherty and many more up and coming players and leadbetter is known as the most astute and knowledgable teachers in the game.

I personally have read the one and two plane swing book by Mr Hardy and while a good book i didnt find anything i hadnt already read anywhere else be it hank haney, jim flick, rick smith, david leadbetter, bob toski, ben hogan, they are all worth reading and finding what works for you.

[dave.]

" think you are also confused about the fact that lots of the "hardy boys" do not do Hardy's one plane swing / 2 plane swing perfectly."

who is confused by this and where did they say this? And what is a Hardy 2 plane swing?

[cypressperch]

is simply a shoulder turning and unturning, a hip turning and unturning, and an arm swing that moves up and down. Two turns and a swish as Mr. Jacobs has said. If the golfer stays connected, big muscles can be the engine at the center of the swing regardless of plane. But even if you are concentrating on the big muscles, there is still an arm-swing going on so that really they are not just along for the ride even if that is not what you are focused on.

Some so called one-planners have their hands so high at the top of their back-swing that it seems impossible to me that there was no shifting to a different plane going back.

I also think that when a person finds that using the principles of Hardy's one plane swing results in pushes, shanks, and other problems that they will eventually avoid getting the club so far behind them. There swing will have become too round. They will find better contact when they keep the club more in front. Likewise, the person who tries to approach the ball early and keep the club head square too long on the target line will have too straight or squared a clubhead path, and will probably slice a lot. This person will end up getting the club coming inside earlier going back to allow an attack from the inside coming back to the ball. They will be moving in the direction of a one-plane swing.

So many variables (posture, physical build, rhythm, tempo, strength, equipment, lie angles, shafts, etc, etc) come to play in developing one's swing that it is hard to avoid the game's complexity. About the best thing you can do is find a good treatment of the fundamentals (Hogan, Jacobs, etc), hopefully get some good professional instruction, get some equipment that fits, and then go start with the digging that is required to become a good golfer. And it may be that Hardy can be an adequate guide. Time will only tell if Hardy will stand the test of time. He may have clarified things for some, but I am certain that he has confused a good many as well.

Sincerely, Cypressperch

[benk]

The 2 plane swing that hardy teaches is the same as John Jacobs, and has most of the elements of mainstream teaching today. Basically, its the mainstream teaching method of today right now.

I agree that any golf swing is all the things you mentioned. it's not like I can swing a golf club without those things moving successfully [ mr. Jacobs was Mr. Hardy's mentor for a long time, but sparked his interest when He asked about Ben Hogan's swing, Jacobs said "he swings on 1 plane" ]. I have never heard of shanks in a hardy 1 plane golf swing, unless they are doing it TOTALLY incorrectly. I have heard of pushes, but that is a problem that needs to be corrected as in any other golf swing problem. They will avoid getting the club behind them?? That's an interesting comment. I guess you can have your own opinion on that, but I have never heard of ANYONE having that problem, along with a person's swing getting too round. A hardy 1 plane swing is not too round, as many people think, it is just on a flatter plane. I think the things you stated about the arms moving when body driven are obvious.

I know that you are sincere in that whatever works do it, but I have never found a person [ and that is all the people on the internet on hardy's forum, oneplanegolfswing.com, and all the people I have helped ] that if they did his fundementals correctly, had problems. I like jacobs ideas, about the 2 plane golf swing, and Hardy also states this. So much so, that he based all his 2 plane ideals of jacobs. I also agree that it is hard to avoid complexity, but that is why what hardy is so great, he has simplified it to the most basic level possible. Theres no Tgm/morad 30 release positions.

Charnockpro, I understand that you have read his book and not felt like you got anything that you didn't get with any other teacher. I agree with that in the 2 plane section, but what teacher stressed what he did in the 1 plane section??? If you found one, I'd love to know. I researched this stuff for a month straight, ever night, reading books and everything. I feel like I've read every golf "guru", and no one had the same as hardy's one plane swing, and in my opinion, no one came close to what is in Hogan's, sneads, and in alot of ways nelsons swing.

I also agree that there are tons of ways to swing a golf club. But what hardy has done is put it down to 2 differant ways, and everything in between. Again, its not like TGM where theres a million ways to do it, theres 2 ways, and you fall into one of those 2. It's that simple. I agree that that is what makes the game so great, but simplifying it isn't such a bad thing, is it???

Anyway, I understand that some people won't agree with Hardy is saying. No one person will have everyons support. But I also don't think that people thinking that way have the whole story. I personally think that Hardy's book did a poor job for the most part stressing the things that has made Hardy so popular among the pros [ because he didn't want to confuse people, It has been posted on other forums that a person saw 20% of people working on Hardy fundementals at the nationwide tour championship, specifically the twist and throw ]. I think the master class [ or whatever its called ] will clear many things up. You must remember that Hardy never taught ameteurs, so he didn't understand what they would need or feel when taking up his golf swings. He now has [ and had when he made the dvds, which are great ] a better understanding, and I am looking forward to the book to see how he has changed the ways he speaks his golf swing.

[charnockpro]

Charnockpro, I understand that you have read his book and not felt like you got anything that you didn't get with any other teacher. I agree with that in the 2 plane section, but what teacher stressed what he did in the 1 plane section??? If you found one, I'd love to know. I researched this stuff for a month straight, ever night, reading books and everything. I feel like I've read every golf "guru", and no one had the same as hardy's one plane swing, and in my opinion, no one came close to what is in Hogan's, sneads, and in alot of ways nelsons swing.


I find Hank Haney's ideas very similar but Hardy is not a revolutionary, there has long been the swedish way of swinging a golf club which is by using the rotational way of swinging a golf club, i dont think he has re-invented the wheel, you have found something that has worked for you and i am happy for you but it will not work for everyone, thats why there is butch harmon, leadbetter, rick smith, even dalton mcrary!! there is plenty of ways to swing a golf club we just have to find what suits ourselves.

[dave.]

benk

The reason you get pushes will be because the body stops turning,you either hit across the ball and fade or push.Hardy is not the only supposed expert on the 1ps,there are others,Chuck Quentin for example,and of course Hogan.But its my opinion the vast majority of players should adopt one plane primciples,its simply easier to hit the ball.

I'm just watching Immleman now in South Africa (on the tele) and to me its a fabulous example of a great 1ps.

Hitting with the bigger muscles,controlling the swing around the torso and hitting hard with the shoulders,and ALWAYS BE TURNING,its just so much easier than the moves required in a 2ps.Imho obviously

ABT,always be turning.Hardy said you can hit as hard as you like from the top using his swing techniques,and I agree,as long as its with the shoulders and body,not arms and hands.Hogan said you hit hard from waist down,same thing really.I always regard this as not having to rely as much on timing,one plane is just everyting working together,two plane is a timing move between top and bottom halfs.Thats just my mental view of it.I don't prescribe to all Hardys methods,I have just adopted some it,same with Hogans book and Quentins stuff.Mix and match 1ps

[dave.]

ps good thread btw

[benk]

Haney did work under hardy for awhile, he taught tiger Hardy's twist and throw, but I think their ideas about the golf swing are very differant. Haney believes in the shaft plane, where as hardy doesn't talk about it much. Hardy wants you to get your hands behind you early, where as haney [ as evidenced in tigers swing and Omeara ] has the hands in front. They both promote a flatter plane, and both promote also the T and T [ twist and throw ], but thats about it.

I do agree taht alot of people have advocated the flatter plane. But I have never seen anyone talk about swinging as left as possible after impact, and most of the people [ like haney ] who advocate the flatter plane advocate hands in front. I also think that Golf teaching today is 2 plane dominant [ leadbetter, though he might be changing again, harmon, smith, etc. ].

Chuck's videos have helped me, but he got his stuff from jim, though he has the differance of passive arms. And Hogan WAS the 1 plane swing. His book was very good, but I think he just said what his feels were and not what was actually happening in some of the things he said [ like his elbow getting in front ]. Trevor immelman is a 2 planer, notice how his hands are in front of him and how his takeaway is 2 plane also. He also drops his hands down into the slot. He also has a 2 plane top position, and a 2 plane release. But I think his swing as a 2 plane swing is great!!

I guess I can argue this all day, but the only reason I am is because all you guys have said is not the reasons that I have heard for people to not like Hardy. Alot of what you say, its the first time I've ever heard it. I think lots of your opinions have merit, but I also think that many people have taken what Hardy has said wrong. I think I probably would've also if a college coach didn't really recommend me to it, and his recomendation really got me to research the hell out of it.