Cast vs. Forged

[Pa Jayhawk]

I read an article one time that was arguing that much of what golfers believe is "feel" is actually sound. They blindfolded them and had them hit forged vs. cast irons. I'm not sure that I subscribe to one idea or the other. But I believe that what one thinks a club should feel/sound like can be found in cast or forged and that when one finds the club that replicates that particluar feel/sound it will be the right club for that person.

Interesting thought, because when I hit my own clubs and the MP60's, my thought when hitting my own clubs after was they had a more "hollow" feel to them.

 

[ezra76]

There is no difference between the two if the same steel is used. (Molecules closer together?). The cast might have some very fine porosity but is doubtful since the casting processes are so much better now. Forged are just "cast" ingots heated to very high temperatures and hammered into shape. This makes them a little stronger (assuming same material) then cast because they are cold worked and they have flow lines (ferrite/pearlite) conforming to the shape. BUT, since most cast irons are stainless they are harder and stronger then the plain carbon steels used in forged irons. Forged irons are softer (more ductile) then cast (easier to bend) but if you can feel the difference you're better then most. Forged won't last as long because of the softer, lower strength steels used. They'll ding up and wear faster then cast stainless irons. The ball wouldn't know the difference either.

That's just something guys who have small .... I mean play Pings say.

 

[VtDivot]

This is an AWESOME thread. I have learned a lot!

I didn't realize how little I knew about the forged vs cast debate.

So let me get this straight:

A club if cast of 1025 carbon steel would feel the same as a forged MP-60? I'll buy that... I guess I never really equated the fact that most castings were stainless. This makes perfect sense to me now. Thanks WBL!

Another question, (again pardon my ignorance) if you could guide me thru the step by step process for say a factory run of a forged CB that would be cool. I'm sure it's all automated by some huge press that weighs a few tons or something that hammers each head indvidually or something insane... there's no dude with a hammer making irons is there???

 

[dave.]

I don't care what other people say,the feel off a forged blade is far superior to cast and it can help your game,I also don't believe anyone that says they don't aspire to hitting a forged blade off the middle at least once in their lives.They know its the pinnacle of ball striking and anything else is just denial.

 

[ualtim]

So let me get this straight:

A club if cast of 1025 carbon steel would feel the same as a forged MP-60? I'll buy that... I guess I never really equated the fact that most castings were stainless. This makes perfect sense to me now. Thanks WBL!

Not quite true. GS made some cast clubheads a few years ago out of 1025 carbon steel and they did not quite achieve the same feel as their forged 1025 carbon steel club heads. After the first year of production, GS offered both 1025 carbon steel and 304 soft steel cast offerings and the 304 steel clubs became the preferred feel to the point where they discontinued the 1025 c steel head. (GS Tour Cavity Pro's)

The forging process does add something the feel of a clubhead. Mizuno adverstises their grain flow forged process and GS and Wishon advertise 6 step forgings as an improvement on previous forged offereings. While some of it is marketing BS, there is a difference in cross sections between cast and forged clubs. I have seen numerous magnified photos of "grain structure" in club heads and there is definitely more of a "grain" alignment in foreged clubheads verus cast clubheads. The real question is can YOU feel the difference between the two? Some people can, some people can not.

 

[ualtim]

I also don't believe anyone that says they don't aspire to hitting a forged blade off the middle at least once in their lives.They know its the pinnacle of ball striking and anything else is just denial.

It is indeed the greatest feeling that you will ever have swinging a golf club, unfortunately, I suck at golf and can not repeat that feeling often enough to allow me to continue playing forged blades. I am a CB guy through and through. MP-60's are the closest I can get to a blade without losing accuracy/distance.

 

[Pa Jayhawk]

I don't care what other people say,the feel off a forged blade is far superior to cast and it can help your game,I also don't believe anyone that says they don't aspire to hitting a forged blade off the middle at least once in their lives.They know its the pinnacle of ball striking and anything else is just denial.

Not really questioning what you think, as again I do not have enough experience with forged irons to have a real opinion, but it may help knowing what you (or anyone else for that matter) are comparing to allow a better understanding. For example, have you played Forged cavity backs or cast Blades in that determination. Again back to the prior comments. Are you comparing like clubs?

I have little doubt most would get more feedback off a blade as opposed to a cavity back. It was apparent the first time I hit one more than 10 times. But what little experience I have based on what I see, most golfers I see picking up Cavity Backs opt for Cast for what may be obvious reasons, where most I see picking up Blades or Musclebacks tend to opt for forged. Just my opinion which may be off base. So with that in mind I can see how one may assimilate forged irons as providing better feel and feedback. So are most people really comparing the material, or is it more the design? Are most comparing Forged vs. Cast, or unknowingly comparing Blades vs. Cavity backs?

Again though, my initial assumption are only based on what I have heard and as mentioned, I have not even played forged irons outside of demoing to this point.

 

[dave.]

I've played everything since I was 14 in 1979,to many clubs to list.I think you are right when you suggest people pick design,they don't pick forged,they pick blades for workability,flight and control and they take the forging as a by product,then get hooked on it.Cast are fine.I use them,nothing worng at all and modern cast clubs are so good you NEED forged irons,but they are still nicer to strike.

 

[Pa Jayhawk]

I've played everything since I was 14 in 1979,to many clubs to list.I think you are right when you suggest people pick design,they don't pick forged,they pick blades for workability,flight and control and they take the forging as a by product,then get hooked on it.Cast are fine.I use them,nothing worng at all and modern cast clubs are so good you NEED forged irons,but they are still nicer to strike.

Thanks! Because regardless of what I have posted and heard, it is in fact speculation and not opinion. Personally I would find it hard to believe that there would not be any difference in how a club feels between the two processes, however I would only think it would be a matter of personal perspective to each individual if they had like clubs.

In the same sense, most people cannot feel a difference in 1-2 swing weights, where some pros can feel much less. Just because most can't feel it, doesn't mean the difference isn't there. Science and weighing will tell you it is in fact there. Although I would think many may assimilate differences outside of material that likely clouds the topic to a great extent.

 

[warbirdlover]

Another question, (again pardon my ignorance) if you could guide me thru the step by step process for say a factory run of a forged CB that would be cool. I'm sure it's all automated by some huge press that weighs a few tons or something that hammers each head indvidually or something insane... there's no dude with a hammer making irons is there???

VtDivot

Forging used to involve heating the ingot to over 1800º F (2000º F?), which makes it very soft and "formable" and "hammering" it repeatedly into shape with a machine with dies. The operator would hit a foot pedal to activate it. Many of our forge house still make our company's gears that way. New way is to heat it as above but use a very powerful hydraulic pressure press (many "tons" pressure) and form it in one "push". Much more consistent and faster.

Not quite true. GS made some cast clubheads a few years ago out of 1025 carbon steel and they did not quite achieve the same feel as their forged 1025 carbon steel club heads. After the first year of production, GS offered both 1025 carbon steel and 304 soft steel cast offerings and the 304 steel clubs became the preferred feel to the point where they discontinued the 1025 c steel head. (GS Tour Cavity Pro's)

The forging process does add something the feel of a clubhead. Mizuno adverstises their grain flow forged process and GS and Wishon advertise 6 step forgings as an improvement on previous forged offereings. While some of it is marketing BS, there is a difference in cross sections between cast and forged clubs. I have seen numerous magnified photos of "grain structure" in club heads and there is definitely more of a "grain" alignment in foreged clubheads verus cast clubheads. The real question is can YOU feel the difference between the two? Some people can, some people can not.

ualtim

There are "layers" of pearlite/ferrite they (when forged) take the shape of the club head. This does make a stronger club (out of 1025 soft steel) then if it were cast... but NOT harder. Cast are made from harder stainless steels to equal this strength but are less "ductile" and can't be "bent" for lie as many times (without cracking). I can't imagine why the grain structure (flow lines) would have anything to do with the feel of the club. But that's my opinion. :laugh:

 

[dave.]

PJ

Yes its opinion,but its the opinion of most low handicappers and pros,and yet most higher handicappers think the opposite and are sceptical.That I think tells it own story

 

[warbirdlover]

Yes its opinion,but its the opinion of most low handicappers and pros,and yet most higher handicappers think the opposite and are sceptical.That I think tells it own story

dave

But you have many pros playing "hard" Ping cast irons. Some other brands the pros use are cast. So it's not the opinion of most low handicappers and pros.

Since this is an argument like husbands and wives arguing I'm done. Wives argue "feelings". Husbands argue "facts". Neither one wins.

 

[ualtim]

I can't imagine why the grain structure (flow lines) would have anything to do with the feel of the club. But that's my opinion. :laugh:

I can not explain it either, but for some reason there is a difference. I hit one of the 1025 c steel casted clubs and ended up going with the 304 steel casted clubs (same exact design and molds) as if felt more like the 1025 c steel forged clubs. I also feel a difference between a Scotty Cameron 304 steel milled putter head versus a cast 304 steel putter head. Maybe its my small brain getting in the way, but I can feel a difference.

 

[Pa Jayhawk]

But you have many pros playing "hard" Ping cast irons. Some other brands the pros use are cast. So it's not the opinion of most low handicappers and pros.

Since this is an argument like husbands and wives arguing I'm done. Wives argue "feelings". Husbands argue "facts". Neither one wins.

Don't know WBL, that brings up a whole other outside influence. I have to wonder how much a multi-million dollar endorsement effects how that current club "feels" compared to the others.

Certainly would make enough of a difference to make it feel like a much better club. Dave carries Cast even though he prefers the feel of Forged, for other reasons. I would be willing to overlook a little feel for a couple million bucks. I didn't see Tiger reaching for a Nike club prior to being given 50 million or so reasons, not that Nike had a bunch of clubs to choose from at that point. What experience did he base switching clubs. The experience of what $50 million dollars would buy him?

 

[dave.]

Pros have to make a living,we don't