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Divots deeper at toe?

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
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Sometimes my iron divots are deeper where the toe of the club has passed. In fact, sometimes it looks at though the toe of the club has passed under the turf, and not through it. This seems to happen more with the 5,6 irons, and much less with the shorter clubs.

My swing is pretty inconsistent, so I sometimes get beautiful "dollar-bill" divots, sometimes deep trenches that you could lose Rock's Beagle in, and sometimes these "toe-deep" divots. The "toe-deep" ones tend also to have a more curved shape to them, i.e. the divot starts out on the target line, and six inches later is pointing to the left of the target. The shots that result from these ugly divots tend to be pretty straight and long (oddly enough).

Besides the obvious fact that I should see my local PGA professional, any ideas on what causes divots like these?
 

ualtim

Carrollton, TX
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Aug 20, 2005
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Incorrect lie angles. Sounds like your 5 and 6 iron are a bit too flat for your swing. If you get a chance, have your lie angles tested for your irons by a clubfitter and/or the local golf shop and bent to the correct angles for your swing.
 
OP
Eracer

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
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Incorrect lie angles. Sounds like your 5 and 6 iron are a bit too flat for your swing. If you get a chance, have your lie angles tested for your irons by a clubfitter and/or the local golf shop and bent to the correct angles for your swing.

Wouldn't that cause fades? I actually have a pretty hard time fading the ball with those clubs.

I will take your advice, though, since it's a good idea anyway.

BTW Tim, have you played with the Srixon wedges? How are they working for you?
 

Pa Jayhawk

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Nov 15, 2005
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Wouldn't that cause fades? I actually have a pretty hard time fading the ball with those clubs.

I will take your advice, though, since it's a good idea anyway.

BTW Tim, have you played with the Srixon wedges? How are they working for you?
Not necessarily. Although it may account for what starts off as a Push or miss to the right (for RH). Depending on your swing path, you could even hit a draw that starts off more to the right.

Lie angle would certainly be my guess, and I would only guess you may consistently miss to the right regardless of ball flight.
 
OP
Eracer

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
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Not necessarily. Although it may account for what starts off as a Push or miss to the right (for RH). Depending on your swing path, you could even hit a draw that starts off more to the right.

Lie angle would certainly be my guess, and I would only guess you may consistently miss to the right regardless of ball flight.

Maybe I wasn't very clear. When I say "toe-deep", I mean really, really, really toe deep. The TOP of the toe of the club passes UNDER the turf. It's really ugly. It's almost as though the shaft is deflecting downwards a RIDICULOUS amount.

For that to be caused by lie angle I would say it would have to off by about 20º or so. Right? And I would never hit good shots with a club that far off. Most of my irons shots are quite straight, actually. I almost never slice an iron, and my misses are generally straight pulls, or pulls with a slight fade.

I'm pretty sure my toe-deep divots are caused by something going really wrong with that swing. Seeing a pro about it would probably not help much, since it doesn't happen often. Maybe he'll see something in my swing that could "devolve" into a shot that produces such a divot.

Logic tells me that in those swings I'm coming over the top a bit, and unhinging my wrists in the vertical plane - in essence, pointing the shaft down at the ball before impact, and changing the lie angle with my wrist angle.

But if there's one thing I've learned it's that it's hard to figure the golf swing out logically.

I guess somebody here will have had to experience the same thing to understand what I'm talking about.

But thanks. And may your Jayhawks fare well. But not as well as my (slipping) Badgers...:(
 

ualtim

Carrollton, TX
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Aug 20, 2005
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BTW Tim, have you played with the Srixon wedges? How are they working for you?

I have a couple rounds on them now, but still no range time to really work them out. I have been busy at work with all this snow in the Midwest and Northeast the past few weeks so that cut into my ST time to expound on the virtues of the Srixon 504's. :D
 
OP
Eracer

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
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I have a couple rounds on them now, but still no range time to really work them out. I have been busy at work with all this snow in the Midwest and Northeast the past few weeks so that cut into my ST time to expound on the virtues of the Srixon 504's. :D

We'll have to start our own cult. We can't have WBL and all the other Pingsters having all the fun.
 

ualtim

Carrollton, TX
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Aug 20, 2005
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We'll have to start our own cult. We can't have WBL and all the other Pingsters having all the fun.

I am multi-cultural already.:D Tour Edge Woods and Hybrids, component irons, Srixon Wedges, and Heavy Putter.:laugh:

The Srixon Wedges have been awesome. I love the feel off the face even more now. Distance control is just plain awesome on short chips and pitches. I actually look forward to getting to use them again on the course.
 

Pa Jayhawk

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Nov 15, 2005
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Another consideration may be the flex of the shaft. During your swing the club has a tendency to "Toe~out". Where basically because of the cosmetic shape and force of the swing, the weight of the toe pulls the toe outward and causes the shaft to bend in what may result to what you would similarly see in too flat of a lie. You had you speed checked recently, and the flex of the shaft?? Maybe need a stiffer shaft. In other words, the shaft doesn't just bend in the direction of the arc of the swing, but in an downward bow as well.

This would be less apparent on shorter shafts as in your shorter irons. Knowing you play a 23* baffler as well, these are obviously your longest irons.

Hope this description makes sense

edit 1 - or if you specifically have graphite shafts, make sure the shaft has not been compromised.
 
OP
Eracer

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
8
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Another consideration may be the flex of the shaft. During your swing the club has a tendency to "Toe~out". Where basically because of the cosmetic shape and force of the swing, the weight of the toe pulls the toe outward and causes the shaft to bend in what may result to what you would similarly see in too flat of a lie. You had you speed checked recently, and the flex of the shaft?? Maybe need a stiffer shaft. In other words, the shaft doesn't just bend in the direction of the arc of the swing, but in an downward bow as well.

This would be less apparent on shorter shafts as in your shorter irons. Knowing you play a 23* baffler as well, these are obviously your longest irons.

Hope this description makes sense

edit 1 - or if you specifically have graphite shafts, make sure the shaft has not been compromised.

Deflection makes more sense to me. But -

I got measured by the True Temper machine and it said I should use A-Flex in my irons, because I have a smooth unload curve with a small acceleration slope. My SS with a driver is right at 90mph.

I tried an A-Flex in my 6i and I could feel myself overpowering it. The irons I play came with S300's, and they felt a bit stiff to me, and didn't get the ball up in the air the way I liked, so after testing about six different brands I ended up changing them to Dynalite Gold R300 shafts. I "feel" that the shafts are the perfect flex. Low dispersion when I'm in a good swing pattern, and I can just "feel" the shaft flexing on a good swing. The shafts give me the extra height I need, since the irons I play are not bottom-weighted, and my swing is far from perfect. I don't want to go on an iron search, since overall, I'm really, really happy with the set as it is now.

I'm 99% confident that they are the right shafts for me.

The Bafflers are money with Nippon S-Flex (which are closer to R400's, right?)

It could certainly be a deflection issue. But I am loathe to even consider changing shafts, since overall I feel really good about my irons, and it took me a fair bit of testing to get there. I think I need to just train myself to swing a bit smoother with the 5-iron.


You want to talk about broken graphite? My driver is broken. I'm convinced of it. I can't (and I mean can't) hit even a decent shot with it anymore. It makes this horrible clunking sound (like I'm hitting the ball off the hosel), and the ball goes off in very unpedictable directions. I know I'm not swinging THAT badly on every tee shot. I mean, I'm smoking my 4-wood down the middle almost every time (Callaway X - great club). I loved that driver, but now I want to throw it in the garbage. Could something be busted inside and not be rattling around? Could the shaft be broken inside the hosel, and only be a problem when hitting a ball?

I think I'm going to pull the shaft and stick another one in there, although I think I'd rather buy a new driver at this point. Mostly because I recently read a review of the same driver, and someone had updated a review he'd made three months earlier, telling a very similar tale of woe.

<edit> oh yeah, and because WBL and the Evil Empire are using their Jedi mind tricks on me...
 

Farquod

Short Game Tragedy
Mar 8, 2005
1,165
0
I have to agree that a lie angle too flat would be the stock answer here. After thinking about this on my way to work today, tho, I had a crazy idea, particularly if you're digging in as much as you say with the toe, and it happens infrequently. And that is:

How do you grip the club?

Do you do the standard grip, wherein, for a righty, the majority of the clamp on the club is maintained by the last 3 fingers on the left hand, OR, do you control mostly with the thumb, index and middle finger on the right hand? If it's the latter, and you're working on loosening your grip a touch (who isn't? ;) ), the butt end may slip forward out of those left fingers on the occasional downswing and pitch forward, resulting in the kind of divot you describe.

Hey, I know it's out there, but I figured, what the heck....
 
OP
Eracer

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
8
  • Thread Starter
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  • #12
I have to agree that a lie angle too flat would be the stock answer here. After thinking about this on my way to work today, tho, I had a crazy idea, particularly if you're digging in as much as you say with the toe, and it happens infrequently. And that is:

How do you grip the club?

Do you do the standard grip, wherein, for a righty, the majority of the clamp on the club is maintained by the last 3 fingers on the left hand, OR, do you control mostly with the thumb, index and middle finger on the right hand? If it's the latter, and you're working on loosening your grip a touch (who isn't? ;) ), the butt end may slip forward out of those left fingers on the occasional downswing and pitch forward, resulting in the kind of divot you describe.

Hey, I know it's out there, but I figured, what the heck....

I have a pretty standard Vardon grip. Interesting idea though.
 

LyleG

gear head
Aug 10, 2006
6,388
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The deflection of the toe is the reason you test for lie dynamically.
This is without a doubt a lie angle issue. Too flat, plain and simple.
 
OP
Eracer

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
8
  • Thread Starter
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  • #14
The deflection of the toe is the reason you test for lie dynamically.
This is without a doubt a lie angle issue. Too flat, plain and simple.

That sounds simple enough. But that can't be the issue. It just can't.

Reasons:

1. Most shots are pretty straight, with nice, even, dollar-bill shaped divots.

2. On these (really) bad divots, the toe of the club passes UNDER the turf, while the heel is making a "normal" swipe.

The lie angle would have to be off by WAY too much to cause that.

Rest assured, I will take your advice and have a dynamic lie check done.

But I can almost guarantee you that the answer lies not in the club, but in the swing.
 

ForgedRbest

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2007
8
0
I would venture to say you may have a shaft problem, especially if the toe digging is occuring when you are swinging harder. The shaft flexes down as well as towards the back of your stance on the downswing.
 

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