Hands ahead of the ball.

[Bignose]

eli, I really hate to be "that guy", but your post is very, very hard to read. And, that's a shame because I think that there is some very good information in it.

Turns out its pretty impossible to hit the ball on the upswing unless the ball is far in front of your leading foot. Bobby Clampett says no matter what, you should always hit the ball on the down swing. If not, then the last second before you start the upswing. Cmon guys, even Bubba Watson doesn't actually hit the ball in the upswing: look at his swingvision. Look at most golfers swingvisions; they aren't hitting on the upswing -- they are hitting on the down swing. I could be wrong, but Bobby Clampett is a genius of the swing and probably knows a little bit more than most. Just look at swing visions of the longest hitter even Vijay definately hits on the downswing.

I think that that is significantly easier to read -- and that is the point of the punctuation and capitalization -- making things easier to read.

Also, to better show your point link to a video or two to show your point. It's not that hard to find, the first link in Google under "vijay swingvision" is Watch Vijay's swing in slow motion - AOL Video

or this photo with the hands well in front at impact: Grouchy Golf Blog

or, most compelling, this youtube video clearly shows the driver going down or maybe parallel at impact -- not upward at all
YouTube - Vijay Singh's Swing

Bubba is very, very close to parallel and I see just a hair up personally. Though, I fully admitt I an not very experienced at looking for these things -- but Bubba's swing is more unclear
Bubba Watson Swing Vision Driver | SwingJury.com
It's very hard to tell to me, I've looked at it 4 or 5 times tonight. It's not definitive either way, and the angle the camera is set up at can introduce all sorts of error/optical illusions.

I think Bobby (as written in his book The Impact Zone where we writes many, many pages on hitting down on every shot from driver to putter) makes some good points, but I am not 100% sure about the driver swing. I think that you want the hands ahead of your front heel, but then you can just release naturally and let the ball get in the way of the normal arc. That's how I personally hit the driver... I swing at a position where the ball would sit for my 3 wood -- the hands get slightly ahead of that position -- like they would for a normal 3 wood shot -- and then the swing continues on. The continues on part is where the club continues in its momentum, and the ball sitting up on the tee is sitting right in its normal path... and that's where I hit it.

Equipment today, however, can actually handle a downward strike fairly well. Get a higher lofted driver, with a head that is known to be low spin and a shaft that is known to be low spin and one can do pretty well. The problem with downward strikes is too much backspin and ballooning, but equipment can ameliorate a lot those issues.

 

[tn-golfnut-from-nj]

I wish I could take a video of my swing and show it on here so you guys would have a better idea.

Someone said earlier, that I may have had my hands a bit too far behind the ball, and this is causing me to think, that with the new set up, my hands are actually in front of the ball.

The more I'm looking at my new stance, the more I think that this may be the case.

With the old stance, I had the ball in the middle, and hands behind the ball, so the shaft looked straight at adress

Now with the new stance, the ball is more forward, in line with my left heel, and the hands look to be even with the ball.

With being used to the old set up, this does indeed look and feel like the hands are ahead of the ball.

I've only hit with this new set up on the range yet.
As soon as I hit some on the course, I'll let you know how it went.

Maybe the range yardage is screwed up.

 

[Sandy]

TN/NJ

If you're happy with 200 yards off the tee and getting it onto the fairway regularly is more important than distance, then maybe the way forward is a big headed 3w (Callaway X Hot, Big Bertha, Cobra M-Speed) off the tee rather than a driver. If your drives are about 200yds you'll barely lose any distance but gain a load more accuracy, especially over a 9.5* driver.

 

[ol-crank]

thanks for your thread. I was told a couple of years

ago to setup with my shoulder, my left hand, and my clubhead in a straight line. This places the hands in front of the ball without thinking about it, and it starts the wrist cock without thinking about it (for me.) Over the last year or so, I have let my hands get behind the ball at setup, (I have both hands in the center, but that puts them behind the ball.) After reading this thread, I checked and sure enough I see the difference and I know that I have to line up shoulder, left hand, and clubhead at setup. It is hard to know where the hands are at impact unless you have a camera, but it sure feels a lot better.
(Distance for me is not a problem, and when I get the shoulders turning, it goes straight. )

 

[gregfletch]

As I thought - this has been a really interesting post to read.

I also struggle with distance - a good drive for me is also around 200 or a little bit further. However, I know that after hitting on a launch monitor recently I'm only swinging around 80 MPH, so maybe it is really important to know your swing speed. That being said, on one of my best strikes the monitor showed 230 carry with a swing speed of 79MPH.

I'm 5'8 and a little overweight - pretty good shape physically and 44 years old. I agree that it is more important to be straight and hitting a second shot from the fairway. The problem for me is that even with a good drive in the fairway if I'm looking at 150 yards to the green for a second shot, that is a 7 wood for me. Pretty hard to get many GIR's with (at best) a 7 wood for the approach. Luckily, I'm a great chipper, putter, and good from the sand also ( I practice the short game ALOT).

I'd like to start videotaping my swing and hopefully find out what I'm doing that robs me of distance since I feel that I should be able to drive it further and that would help the rest of my game. My goal is to get from a 20 handicap down to a 10....

 

[tn-golfnut-from-nj]

I hear you Greg.
I think my problem with the driver distance maybe not enough back swing.

I get tentetive trying to hit driver full swing, in fear of the ball going all over the place.

I don't have this problem with my irons at all for some reason.
If I'm a 150 yards off the green, an easy 6 iron or a well hit 7 iron will do the trick pretty consistantly. (depends on the lie)
Maybe its confidance with the irons, and the lack of it with the driver.

I could get off the tee, with a 3H and hit it as far as the driver in most cases, but then why have a driver in the bag at all?

I will get to the bottom of this one way or another.

 

[SilverUberXeno]

I really think you're all wrong.

Read any educational literature on the driver swing in any golf magazine, website, even here, and you will find advice to hit the ball on the upswing with the driver. If you disagree...

Why do we tee the ball up so high? Normal position is to have half the ball showing above the clubface. If you struck this on the downswing, popup!

Why play the ball forward? Normal position is level with the left instep. Play it in the middle and hit it with a descending blow, murderous backspin!

Here's Tiger: YouTube - Tiger Woods Swing

No one, nor myself, suggests you hit the ball WAY into the upswing. Think og an ideal launch angle... roughly 14*. You can achieve that without a 14* driver. You ideally want to hit the ball JUST after it reaches it's lowest point, so it's on the way up at a very shallow angle (2-3* measured from the ground). Maybe drivers were made to be struck on the downswing 10 years ago? Not anymore.

ALSO: Keep in mind this is JUST DRIVER SWING. Fairway woods, irons, and wedges (aside from particular trick shots) need to be struck on the downswing. But with the driver, you are sacrificing distance you do not need to.

 

[Adam Pettman]

I agree with whats posted above.

 

[SilverUberXeno]

I hear you Greg.
I think my problem with the driver distance maybe not enough back swing.

I get tentetive trying to hit driver full swing, in fear of the ball going all over the place.

I don't have this problem with my irons at all for some reason.
If I'm a 150 yards off the green, an easy 6 iron or a well hit 7 iron will do the trick pretty consistantly. (depends on the lie)
Maybe its confidance with the irons, and the lack of it with the driver.

I could get off the tee, with a 3H and hit it as far as the driver in most cases, but then why have a driver in the bag at all?

You may be right here, TN. a 150 6/7 iron is competent for sure. If you can hit your 3H almost as far as your driver, ALWAYS use your 3H until you're more comfortable. Clubs with more loft impart more natural backspin, which keeps the ball from curving left/right. When I was on the high school golf team I used my 3W almost exclusively off the tee.

Especially for you, notice Tiger's SwingVision. Notice that his shoulders/head do not slide forward and cover the ball. His hands are just behind the ball at impact, and the club is whipping through from the release to attack at a slightly upward angle. Try to do this next time you're at the range and see how it goes for you.

 

[eli_yates]

eli, I really hate to be "that guy", but your post is very, very hard to read. And, that's a shame because I think that there is some very good information in it.



I think that that is significantly easier to read -- and that is the point of the punctuation and capitalization -- making things easier to read.

Also, to better show your point link to a video or two to show your point. It's not that hard to find, the first link in Google under "vijay swingvision" is Watch Vijay's swing in slow motion - AOL Video

or this photo with the hands well in front at impact: Grouchy Golf Blog

or, most compelling, this youtube video clearly shows the driver going down or maybe parallel at impact -- not upward at all
YouTube - Vijay Singh's Swing

Bubba is very, very close to parallel and I see just a hair up personally. Though, I fully admitt I an not very experienced at looking for these things -- but Bubba's swing is more unclear
Bubba Watson Swing Vision Driver | SwingJury.com
It's very hard to tell to me, I've looked at it 4 or 5 times tonight. It's not definitive either way, and the angle the camera is set up at can introduce all sorts of error/optical illusions.

I think Bobby (as written in his book The Impact Zone where we writes many, many pages on hitting down on every shot from driver to putter) makes some good points, but I am not 100% sure about the driver swing. I think that you want the hands ahead of your front heel, but then you can just release naturally and let the ball get in the way of the normal arc. That's how I personally hit the driver... I swing at a position where the ball would sit for my 3 wood -- the hands get slightly ahead of that position -- like they would for a normal 3 wood shot -- and then the swing continues on. The continues on part is where the club continues in its momentum, and the ball sitting up on the tee is sitting right in its normal path... and that's where I hit it.

Equipment today, however, can actually handle a downward strike fairly well. Get a higher lofted driver, with a head that is known to be low spin and a shaft that is known to be low spin and one can do pretty well. The problem with downward strikes is too much backspin and ballooning, but equipment can ameliorate a lot those issues.

hey you are 100% right unfortunately im far too lazy to correct my grammar and punctuation. people have mentioned it before but im just too lazy. but i do agree with you 100%. anyway thanks for agreeing with me in what i said or rather what i tried to convey through broken sentences and run ons and so on and so forth. i appreciate it.

 

[RJTee]

I saw the article by Clampett that Eli is talking about; good information about finding the bottom of your swing arc, and contacting the ball with irons, fairway woods before that. The driver according to Clampett should be contacted at the bottom of the arc (parallel to the ground) or very slightly afterward. Obviously as the clubs get longer the arc is going to be shallower to the angle of attack won't be as steep, but Clampett insisted that it is still a downward blow with every club including the driver and letting the loft and dynamics built into the club do the work.

As far as achieving more distance, with any club in the bag, the club must approach the ball from the inside. The angle of approach by the clubhead will be shallower, at a much higher velocity, and will feel effortless as the ball rockets off the clubface. The best example of this was an octogenarian I saw golf at an outing who looked like he was swinging in slow motion every time he swung; I am pretty sure he had played all his life as every swing came fron the inside and was well over 200 yards straight down the middle with a slight draw including shots off the fairway with a driver.

I think you're right, TN; swinging the driver may cause you to be anxious resulting in a incomplete shoulder turn. That could be resulting in a over the top move coming back to the ball, and be taking away your distance on the driver. Once you make a good shoulder turn and have made a few good strikes from the inside the confidence will soar and you will wonder why it ever bothered you. But then it will be something else:real angry::laugh:

RJ

 

[Bignose]

TrackMan™ Newsletter January 2008

Here's another intersting take on the issue at hand. These guys have measured how several pros do hit down -- but several hit up to. Look at some of these number, Critie Kerr recorded a drive with an angle of attack of +8.1 (+ indicates upward). Conversely, Charles Howell III has recored a drive with an angle of attack of -7.5.

The conclusion of the article above is that Tiger, Phil, CHIII, Sergio and others are hitting down for the added control. The article does say that if they hit up more they could get and extra 30-40 yards, but none of those guys are exactly short hitters -- they are probably making the choice to give up a little distance for a significant improvement in control.

What is interesting is that their data suggests that angle of attack is almost completely independent of spin rate -- that location of the impact on the face is the major determining factor for how much spin a ball has.

The disappointing part of that statement is whether the independence of the spin rate on angle of attack is only true at very fast swings or if angle of attack becomes more important at slower speeds.

 

[RJTee]

Great article, BN, thanks for sharing it.

My son and I followed CHIII at the Buick Open, and he indeed has a low launch with a driver. His swing with the irons and driver looked the same to me. His iron shots were followed by a healthy divot after contacting the ball. At one point, we were able to get near him on a shot from the fairway; he and his caddy were discussing on whether to use a 6 or 7 iron into the green. He settled on a 7 and put the ball within 10 feet of the cup from 210 yards out (2nd shot on a par 5). Yeah I guess for the pro's, distance with a driver is optional.

RJ

 

[niblick]

cmon guys even bubba watson doesnt actually hit the ball in the upswing.

Not true. They've put Bubba on Trackman, and it shows 4-5 degrees up angle at impact with driver. I've seen him in person, and his super high ball flight with driver bears this out.

 

[cypressperch]

In golf, opinions vary, even among "experts."

There is no doubt that Clampet knows what he is talking about, and he is probably doing what he thinks he is with his own swing. Likewise, there are plenty of people, just as qualified, who have written that we should catch the ball on the upswing with the driver. Those who write that about catching the drive on the upswing will invariably say that this is only true with the driver. On all other shots with all other clubs (except intentionally higher shots with wedges), there is a descending blow. I would argue that there is far more difference between the descending blow on a three-wood shot and a normal wedge shot than between the descending blow of the three-wood shot and catching the drive on the up-swing. Further, I would argue that it would be quite difficult to know with accuracy if we had truly caught a drive on the up-swing when trying to or on the down-swing if we were trying to when the attack angle is so shallow when the ball position is foward in the stance.

As for having the hands ahead of the ball at address, there is no guarantee that they are there at impact. You would probably pop the ball up most of the time if they were.

The talk about distance with the driver or a seven-iron or six iron shows how wrapped up we can be with distance. Work on your fundamentals, get your tempo the same with all shots, and then find out what your distance is. Rely on that distance and just play the course accordingly. If you someday make that first hole-in-one with a four-iron, I doubt if you will be upset that someone else could have done it with a seven-iron or whatever. It is very unlikely that you would have ever made that hole-in-one with a seven-iron. A good shot is a good shot regardless of the club used.

Sincerely, Cypressperch