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My thoughts while I work through reading Hogan's Five Lessons

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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

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Sep 6, 2005
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bdcrowe said:
I'm interested in your final decision on this, since you've moved to the finer points of the lessons.
Well, like I said previously, the difference in how we were thinking about was in terms of our starting assumptions about how to view it.

You were viewing it in terms of the ball having a fixed position, and the feet being altered.

I was getting the same sort of stance idea, but working with a different assumption to start. My feet would have fixed positions, and the ball would "move" in response to that.

I now work from the starting assumptions you were using, positioning my left heel to the fixed position of the ball, then adjusting my right foot according to the club I'm using.

Both sets of starting assumptions are valid to use, but this way now is probably easier to figure in the head. It's almost like the decision between using a heliocentric solar system model or using a geocentric solar system model to describe things. NASA could use a geocentric solar system model to calculate flight plans for its rockets, it would just be horrendously complex to do so in comparison to using the sun at the center of the solar system.

That might not be exactly what you wanted to hear, but that's how I tend to think about it. And the analogy isn't exactly a perfect comparison either, but it's hard sometimes to try to talk to people about the idea of starting assumptions shaping our thinking and conclusions, whether it's about the golf swing, or more philosophical debate.
 

Highdraw34

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The way I hit the ball today on the course was amazing. Still had some balls go off center but there were no chunks, no flubs, no snap hooks, no goner slices. When I missed it was because of pace and fatigue. These things I can fix. This book has made me a better golfer ten fold. I have always felt inadecquate with my distances, today I was pin high on a par 3 measuring 165 yards. I got there with an 8. There was no wind and the air was heavy. This is unheard of for me. I reached a 510 yard par five in two with a drive and a 5I. All this and I have never swung easier or lighter in my life. Again. This book shows you what it really and truly should feel like to hit a great ball everytime. Thanks BH.
 
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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

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Right now, an area that is confounding me some is off the tee with my driver and 3-wood. It's likely due some because of the longer shafts on the clubs, a tiny error in the longer shaft gets magnified.

But from the deck, my iron striking has never been better, and I can pretty well count on hitting a nice cut shot now that I've begun working in the move to increase supination on the downswing. I had been having trouble at times with the short irons getting some flip, the clubface closing, and I would pull the shot to the left with no cut back.

Last night I hit a couple of sand wedges and a lob wedge straight at the stick.
 

Highdraw34

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Mar 27, 2006
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My Driver has given me the most problem as well. I shortened my backswing a bit and tried making a more mechanical motion making sure my left arm stays very straight. I also teed the ball lower and it worked great. A high tee tends to lead me to draw the ball too much. The lower tee placement heleped a great deal.
 
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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

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Highdraw34 said:
My Driver has given me the most problem as well. I shortened my backswing a bit and tried making a more mechanical motion making sure my left arm stays very straight. I also teed the ball lower and it worked great. A high tee tends to lead me to draw the ball too much. The lower tee placement heleped a great deal.
Generally, I'm getting improvement on it, but the driver is definitely not what I would call completely reliable yet. The two most common faults are too much slice, and sometimes pulling the ball hard left.

So I'm still having the over-the-top move creeping in, and I'm thinking I need to focus on getting my hips going to start the downswing.

When my swing was more two-plane and upright, I used to initiate the downswing by dropping my arms into the slot, it was a very definite downward drop of the hands. I think I'm getting residual memories of that causing me the same sort of motion, but because I'm now leaning over a bit more with my stance, this throws the hands out away from my body, and outside the swing plane.

I need to get the driver/3-wood tee shots more reliably in play. It's a good feeling now that when I'm within a 5-iron to the green, I'm thinking it's a good chance to put it on the green. So it's a bit frustrating to have as many holes as I'm having right now where I'm playing recovery shots to get the ball in wedge range.

But I'll get it figured out. And I think I may have had the leap of understanding where my current glitch is originating.
 
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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

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Damn it. I really should have taken some video here at some point. But it's occurred to me, as I've been thinking and rehearsing things at odd times here at work, that I may be standing too far away from the ball. I seem to have an inclination to want to lift my arms, rather than getting them to hang as illustrated in the book, and other graphical representations I've found while researching this issue on the internet.

That could definitely play a big role in the troubles I'm having off the tee, the ball is sitting out too far, and I'm getting an urge to go out after the ball.

If my suspicions are correct here, then correcting this should help, too. Damn. I'm a bit chuffed that I've been overlooking this, but then, it's good if I'm right because then I'll take yet another positive step forward to the goal of breaking 80 this summer.

That's not bad. I mean, it was only a couple of months ago that I broke 90 the first time, and it was after that that I bought this book. In that time, I've really been rebuilding my swing from the two-plane piecemeal I had devised late last year into this more Hogan-styled swing.
 

ezra76

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Feb 5, 2006
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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast said:
Generally, I'm getting improvement on it, but the driver is definitely not what I would call completely reliable yet. The two most common faults are too much slice, and sometimes pulling the ball hard left.

This is a problem I often encounter. I always set up for a slight out to in path for a 10yd. fade. If I play the ball too far forward I tend to push it right at the start...not good. Then every one in a while I get a case of the double-cross pulls. These are the worst, a slice I can usually get it back together with another huge fade, the pull I'm screwed. I'm usually lucky just to get it back in the fairway, never mind any closer. These issues get much smaller with a 3W and virtually are a non-issue with the 5W.
 

bdcrowe

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Aug 30, 2004
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Have you guys incorporated Hogan's closed stance/square upper-body?

The weak grip promotes taking the club too far outside (away from the ball) and will promote that out-to-in. Hogan took this into account and adopted the closed/square stance with his longer clubs. Would be worth looking into if you haven't.

Another great thought is that of swinging around your spine-- almost more like a reverse-pivot (see RBB's pic of Hogan for his reverse-pivot). Tuck your elbows (both of them) in and keep them there. It will be almost impossible to go outside like this, and almost impossible to become disconnected too.
 
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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

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Sep 6, 2005
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bdcrowe said:
Have you guys incorporated Hogan's closed stance/square upper-body?

The weak grip promotes taking the club too far outside (away from the ball) and will promote that out-to-in. Hogan took this into account and adopted the closed/square stance with his longer clubs. Would be worth looking into if you haven't.

Another great thought is that of swinging around your spine-- almost more like a reverse-pivot (see RBB's pic of Hogan for his reverse-pivot). Tuck your elbows (both of them) in and keep them there. It will be almost impossible to go outside like this, and almost impossible to become disconnected too.
I went to the range this evening to work on the ideas I wrote earlier today, and also ended up closing my stance some as I tried to work out what I need to do with the longer shaft.

Got some improvement, very much focused on the idea too of swinging around the spine as sometimes I lose that as I make this transition from my old two-plane habits. Didn't yet try going really hard after the ball like Hogan wants, I figure if I can capture the feeling of it with smoothness I can then work on notching it up.

Less spraying of the ball around, and usually a soft fade. For now just work on getting the driver more in play, and from there, see if I can turn it up for more distance.
 
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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

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Okay, got 18 in tonight, and worked with the adjustments I began working on the range last night.

Closed up my stance, and stood closer to the ball than previously. My arms were much tighter to my body to begin with.

Much better driving tonight and getting the ball in play.

Kinda hurried my way around the course tonight, so I made some mental errors that cost me some strokes and resulted in an 86 for the total.

At some point, one of these birdie putts that grazes the edge is not going to just graze the edge and drop. I dropped some decent par putts tonight from the 5 to 10 foot range, and 4 up-and-down pars while out there.
 

bdcrowe

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RBB,
You'll find that the 1-plane, hoganesque swing will actually perform better as you "commit" to it and not "baby" or steer it. The beauty of it is the connection, in that you can go as hard as you want into it and (as long as you are staying connected and turning around your spine) the swing will stay intact.

To detail my recommendation to swing around your spine to get rid of the blocks and slices... The swing should be going in-to-out-to-in. It's important that the clubhead starts moving immediately back inside (around your body) somewhere around contact. This is because it is basically your body that releases the clubhead, and that is done by your body rotating and pulling the clubface square/clubhead back inside.

So, the old montra to finish high may be hurting you. You should be swinging the club back to the left of target. You'll see this in many of the tour players these days, especially the euros. Think of keeping your left bicept (for R handers) stuck to your body in the through-swing and your trunk rotating as opposed to rocking.

Good luck...
 
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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

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When I say an easy swing, it's not babying it or steering it.

Some of the problem I have is that a lot of my memory of swinging hard is very much a move with the arms, and not getting my body moving. Right now I need to let up a bit, and let my hips learn this move.

See, when I got that right last evening, it was quite lovely. I had 6 good drives last night, where I got myself aligned properly, and put a good rip on the ball without the old muscle recall where my arms take over. Man, those were nice to watch, fading lightly back, especially the one at the 5th hole which rolled out to around 270 yards, leaving me just a sand wedge in.

I didn't even really feel like I went hard at that drive. I just put a good swing on it. But I hit it as far as I hit drives which were just armsy swings of the past. So right now I think the key thing is to feel that rotation without it being a jump out of my socks hard. Just feel that turning and rotation without babying it, but not so pumped up that my arms try to take over.
 

bdcrowe

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Aug 30, 2004
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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast said:
When I say an easy swing, it's not babying it or steering it.

Some of the problem I have is that a lot of my memory of swinging hard is very much a move with the arms, and not getting my body moving. Right now I need to let up a bit, and let my hips learn this move.

See, when I got that right last evening, it was quite lovely. I had 6 good drives last night, where I got myself aligned properly, and put a good rip on the ball without the old muscle recall where my arms take over. Man, those were nice to watch, fading lightly back, especially the one at the 5th hole which rolled out to around 270 yards, leaving me just a sand wedge in.

I didn't even really feel like I went hard at that drive. I just put a good swing on it. But I hit it as far as I hit drives which were just armsy swings of the past. So right now I think the key thing is to feel that rotation without it being a jump out of my socks hard. Just feel that turning and rotation without babying it, but not so pumped up that my arms try to take over.
Well said, RBB...

Proof that it's all coming together.
 
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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast

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My brain took a leave of absence for about 8 holes on Saturday's round, and fecked up my score badly. Started off like gangbusters, was +1 after the first 4 holes, and at the 5th, hit a beautiful cut drive and I was staring at a sandwedge in for the pin. Toed the shot, dumped it in the front bunker and a footprint. Didn't take enough sand with my 3rd shot, and it just trickled off into the rough behind the green. My putt from there scooted by about 12 feet, and I left the putt for bogey one turn short of going in.

At the 6th, I hit a beautiful 4-iron off the tee that went right over top the stick, then 3-putted!

Uhhhhh.

Little mental errors and glitches really bit me hard on Saturday.

It wasn't til the 15th hole that I finally got my head straightened out and playing better quality, better consistency.

Still, my driver has improved a lot over a week ago having closed up my stance.

Despite the upper 80's score on Saturday, I can feel good about the start I was having. +1 after 4 holes is my best first 4 holes ever, and if I'd just hit a good sandwedge at 5, and 2-putted 6, I could have been +1 after the first 6 holes.

I just have to work on keeping my focus, and concentrating on the shot I want before I take my swing. And then hit it. I've got the swing now, it's just a matter of consistent execution.
 

Highdraw34

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Ravenous Bugblatter Beast said:
My brain took a leave of absence for about 8 holes on Saturday's round, and fecked up my score badly. Started off like gangbusters, was +1 after the first 4 holes, and at the 5th, hit a beautiful cut drive and I was staring at a sandwedge in for the pin. Toed the shot, dumped it in the front bunker and a footprint. Didn't take enough sand with my 3rd shot, and it just trickled off into the rough behind the green. My putt from there scooted by about 12 feet, and I left the putt for bogey one turn short of going in.

At the 6th, I hit a beautiful 4-iron off the tee that went right over top the stick, then 3-putted!

Uhhhhh.

Little mental errors and glitches really bit me hard on Saturday.

It wasn't til the 15th hole that I finally got my head straightened out and playing better quality, better consistency.

Still, my driver has improved a lot over a week ago having closed up my stance.

Despite the upper 80's score on Saturday, I can feel good about the start I was having. +1 after 4 holes is my best first 4 holes ever, and if I'd just hit a good sandwedge at 5, and 2-putted 6, I could have been +1 after the first 6 holes.

I just have to work on keeping my focus, and concentrating on the shot I want before I take my swing. And then hit it. I've got the swing now, it's just a matter of consistent execution.

How much of this are you attributing to five lessons? I attribute all of my recent success to it. It has totally changed the way I play the game. My round on Sunday is my testimonial to that book. I teed off on the first hole of my home course, a 333 yard par 4 with a tight fairway and a protected green. I took a three iron and hit it about 205. Didn't get all of it but it went straight as an arrow. Hit a wedge about five yards to far and caught the fringe. Up and down. I then hit a bad drive on #2 and took a 6 (bogey) then went par, bogey, par, par, bogey,par, par, bogey. So I was +4 after 9 which is about average for me. Nothing special except for the fact that I was smashing the ball. The back 9 is new and much much much more difficult. I started out par, par, par, par, par. So through 14 holes I am +4 and I hadn't had a birdie so I knew I was just not making my putts. Of course then it fell apart and I gave back 8 strokes over the next four holes. I had two three putts and a four putt. So I know where my strokes where. The point is that my game is a real game now. I have hit some shots in the last week that I couldn't imagine. I'm much straigher with every club. My distances have changed dramatically.

PW 135-145
9I 150-159
8I 160-170

These are consitant hits. Even if I miss it still goes well. I know I have said this before and it may sound like I am spamming for this book but I have no vested interested in it. I would just like to see everyone realize their golf potential and this book can help anyone. If only there was a book like this for putting.
 

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