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Question ablut Precept Laddie Xtreme Balls?

Pa Jayhawk

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I use to be concern a lot about compression but because of the various materials, cores, dimples, etc... I have given up on sticking with a certain compression. Sometimes the compression was what I was use to but it just didn't feel right.

You say that the Pro V1 has a high compression rate but the ball feels softer than my wilson true staff when hitting. Also I was hitting the 2 piece wilson staff true balls about 15-20 yrds further then the ProV1, a 3 piece ball. Why? I don't know. It just is.

I don't know what my swing speed is but I do drive the ball longer than 95% of those I have played with (includes walking on as a single). Distance varies a lot... wind and all. Sometimes over 300, sometimes around 275, Probably average in between.
Actually, I mentioned the Pro V1x has a high compression rate, higher than the Pro v1. Not sure about the Wilson. It wouldn't surprise me that the Pro V1 feels softer around the greens. That is one of the reasons it will be hard to find a ball at a 1/3 of the cost that has the same feel, spin, and distance of the Pro V1. Although compression and feel around the greens are two seperate things. One has alot to do with the cover, the other has alot to do with the compression rating. Then you also have spin, which to find a ball with optimal spin and distance, usually is more common with the layers, or a 3 piece ball. Again though, with out seeing your swing and it's characteristics, a 3 piece ball is not a better ball just because it is 3 piece. In the same sense a distance ball or a 2 piece ball may be longer, although it may come at the expense of the ability to hold greens and spin or feel. Distance is only one part of the game, 15-20 yards more at the cost of feel and the ability to hold greens may not necessarily be a good thing.

Not sure what else to say that I didn't mention in my prior post, outside of the fact that if you choose to ignore how the ball compresses based on your distinct swing characteristics, and finding one that is optimal for your swing may come at the expense of your scores. It is really more a matter of physics. In the same sense, if you have a Swing Speed of 130 MPH, and use a graphite shaft rated for an 80 mph swing, you will likely never get the optimal performance from your clubs. Hope that helps.
 

bames

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I know that it is a little risky these days, but I found a reliable seller on ebay from whom I purchase my ProV1 balls. They are clearly rated and you can find any type of ball from near new to a water ball. I generally spend about $2-2.25 per ball for my ProV1 as I do not care if someone else has written on them. (I just have a problem with company logos but that is an OCD problem of my own!) Good luck in the search.
 

limpalong

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I'm going to stir the pot a little. Yesterday... 10 years ago... ball compression ratings (at that time between 80 and 110) were extremely important in finding a ball that fit your game. No so today!!! I'm going to paste an article, now, and take up the discussion below it...

The core material and structure as well as the cover material and dimple patterns determine the specifications of golf balls. As to the performance characteristics, traditionally golf balls can be classified into three different types: 1) distance and durability (DD); 2) distance and control (DC), and 3) control and feel (CF). The market trend, however, is toward new high performance balls providing additional distance and durability as well as control and feel (DCF).
awww.purelygolf.com_assets_images_ball.jpg

Core Construction - Differences in core construction influence the performance characteristics: spin rates (control and distance), initial velocity (distance) and compression (feel). Traditionally, there are basically two types of core constructions -- wound and solid -- more specifically three-piece wound core ball and a two-piece solid core ball. The wound ball (no longer available) consists of the center, the windings and the cover. The center is either liquid-filled or solid. Normally, balata-covered golf balls featured a liquid filled core, which lowers the spin rate at a higher ball velocity. Two piece balls with solid centers, which increase the spin rate at a higher ball velocity, are generally made of rubber or thermoplastic elastomer compound. High end solid-center multilayer balls generally consist of a large core (either solid one piece or multi-layer), another layer for spin control (i.e. ionomer casing by Titleist) and a thin urethane elastomer cover. It lowers the amount of spin at a higher ball velocity (i.e. driver shots.)

Cover Materials and Design - The golf ball cover was either balata, elastomer or Surlyn. However, balata balls are no longer sold today. The cover materials together with the core construction alter the spin rate and feel of the ball. The distribution of mass toward the outer layer makes the moment of inertia larger, therefore the revolution of the golf ball at the landing tends to be higher without having higher initial revolution rates. It helps stop the ball on the green without sacrificing the distance. Tungsten is occasionally used for golf balls for the composite layer underneath the cover for larger moment of inertia. In the meantime, it is believed that the optimal revolution for long driving shots are in the range of 2,300 -2,800 rpm. Multilayer or multiple covers with advanced materials in conjunction with aerodynamic dimple patterns are often used for the optimal launch conditions such as ball velocity, launch angle and spin rate for distance, as well as the better feel, true roll and control. The dimple number and pattern influence the ball trajectory.

Four Types of Golf Balls - Traditionally, there have been three types of golf balls. First, 3-piece models, which consist of a small, liquid-filled or solid rubber core wrapped by rubber thread and then covered with a balata, urethane or balata-derivative cover, are for feel, spin and control. (This type of balls are no longer sold.) Second, so called "Double Cover" models combining a large, solid core with two layer covers are, in a sense, reasonable in both feel and distance. The outer cover is usually soft and the inner cover tends to be made from harder and sometimes heavier materials. Third, Surlyn-covered wound balls normally have a solid rubber center. The harder, and durable Surlyn cover decreases the spin rate of the golf ball. However, today's high performance balls are solid center multilayer structure providing more distance without sacrificing feel, spin and control.

Compression - Ball compression used to be one of the most important specifications to choose a golf ball. The compression rating, 80, 90 or 100 (even 110 was approved), denotes the hardness of core. The lower the compression, the softer a golf ball feel at impact. In the past, low compression balls were sold for ladies or seniors. Today, however, golf ball manufacturers abandoned to use compression as a specification to sell the balls. It appears that today's golf balls featuring sofler feel are in the range of 70 - 80 compression (most of the makers do not publish the data.) Top-Flite publishes the data, and the Strata Tour Premier, a high-end performance golf ball, is 80 in compression. Some manufactures are now selling very low core compression (i.e. in the 40s) balls.

Fact: You will score better with a ball well suited to your game. That "fitting" of a ball to your game, today, has far more to do with than ball compression. You mention the ProV1x has a higher compresson rating than does the ProV1. I'd like to see some supporting data on that! Titleist does not post compression ratings on their golf balls. The ProV1x is a 4-piece ball vs. the ProV1 being a 3 piece. The difference is an extra cover layer that has slightly difference spin characteristics... not a difference in compression.

Today's ball technology has so much to do with the ball core material and the ball cover material. Use to be there were just solid balls or wound balls. We see no wound balls today. We do see different core and cover designs. Those differences relate to different spin rates, different distances, different feel.

I love the ProV1. Fits my game, evidently. This ball gives me the combination of the longest drives, the most consistency off the irons, and the best feel around the greens... the total package. Let's look as some experiences with both sides of the spectrum...

Low compression balls: I drive a Crystal Volvik the farthest of any ball out there... followed by the Noodle. Both are low compression balls. The Crystal Volvik has zero consistency off my irons. I may hit one 9 iron 120, the next 140, and the next 150. The Noodle is consistent, distance wise, but will not hold a green. Both are low compression and are probably 5 to 7 yards longer off the driver than the ProV1. I do not have a problem with distance off the tee and, therefore, would choose neither of these for my ball of choice.

The Titleist SoLo, Precept Lady and Laddie, and Nike Mojo are all supposed to be low compression, much like the Volvik and the Noodle. None of these "low compression" give me anywhere near the distance of the ProV1. All fall as much as 10 yards short of the ProV1.

Swing speed is no longer a precussor that you can draw a conclusion between ball "compression" and distance.

High compression balls: There is no such thing today. Again, Titleist or Nike or Bridgestone... no one published compression ratings. Most articles will say the ProV1 feels similar to an 85 to 87 compression on the "old" scale. I will guarantee you, either the ProV1 or the ProV1x both feel a whole lot softer than the old Titleist DT100's!!! But, again, the high end balls need fit to your game.

The Callaway Tour ball is similar constuction as the ProV1. That ball feels similar off the clubface as the ProV... I drive it similar distance as a ProV... But to me the ball feels "clunky" around the greens. There, to me, is a much "harder" feel off the putter with the Callaway than the ProV. Bridgestone's new B330 is getting great reviews. If I didn't have 8 dozen, or so, Prov1's in the basement, I would certainly spend some time with this ball. Its performance is right with the ProV1 in every category except distance off the driver. It is consistently 3 to 5 yards longer off the tee. To me, the 330s (ball construction like the ProV1x) feels and performs more like the ProV1 than the ProV1x. Go figure!!!

What does all this BS mean?? What it means is $$$ in the pocket of the ball manufacturers. Sort of like giving away razors in order to sell the high dollar razor blades that fit only that razor. Golf ball selection used to be so simple. If I wanted rocks... distance... I simply went in and bought a dozen Top Flites. If I wanted feel, I simply went in and bought the 90 or the 100 compression Titleists, depending on my swing speed. I could play 100 compression all summer long and then go to 90 compression in the winter to have a little better feel. Those were my choices!!! Period!!!! Today, there are a dozen manufacturers and another half dozen choices, or more, with each of those manufacturers. The cost of "kissing a lot of frogs to find a princess" is astronomical. Unless you have a "connection" that allows you to do exhaustive testing, finding the exact fit of a ball to your game is virtually impossible. Then, about the time you do find the magic "egg", the manufacturer changes the receipe and you're looking again!!!

Sorry for the ridiculously long post. But, I really do feel that tossing out that one should fit compression to swing speed is doing a disservice. That premise could have those with higher swing speed out there looking for a high compession ball... and be totally mystified when they find no compression ratings available today. There are some great ball fitting matrixes available on the web. When the weather is bad, this winter, do your homework... analyze what ball you want to put in play next Spring... dream of how much your game will improve with that ball choice... then have fun finding that ball when you're ready because the manufacturer has changed models and designs!!! LOL
 

Eracer

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Oct 31, 2005
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What balls are you currently playing?

I was playing ProV1 but it was too expensive and I thought that it had too much spin. I tried ProV1x and love those but couldn't see spending that kind of money. They Wilson Staff True balls IMO hit similar to the ProV1x.

Does anyone else know of balls similar to the ProV1x but not as costly?

Maxfli Black Max

Limpalong - that was a long post, but it was full of great info. Thanks.

I have one question for you: you say that the Crystal Volvik ball is inconsistent off your irons. I'm no physicist, but what I do know tells me that if the ball contacts the clubhead with the same velocity and force vectors, i.e it is swung the same for each shot, then the results of that shot, assuming no variability in the performance characteristics of the ball itself, will be the same.

Are you saying that the Crystal balls are so poorly manufactured that the materials and manufacturing process produce balls with no consistency?

I know for me that inconsistency in my irons is because I stubbornly continue to play forged blades, and only sometimes hit the ball in the center of the clubface. I get the sense that you are a much better ballstriker, so there must be something really wacky with that Crystal ball.
 

Pa Jayhawk

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I'm going to stir the pot a little. Yesterday... 10 years ago... ball compression ratings (at that time between 80 and 110) were extremely important in finding a ball that fit your game. No so today!!!

I agree with this in large part, most of what I posted on the importance of compression rating has more to do if you find yourself at the extremes, and why I concentrated more on ball construction. If you have a slow swing, a Pro V1x will likely hurt you simply based on compression. If you have a tour calibur swing, and Noodle or Laddie will likely do the same and not give you an optimal effect. If you just have the swing of most in between, then you likely will not see the same adverse result, or I should say, lessoning your performance potential. I think it is more important understanding the characteristics of the different type of balls. Why they spin, where they obtain distance, why the feel the way the do, and fitting youself based on the characteristics you wish to obtain. So a 3 piece ball may not be optimal for many and may be a waste of money. However, if you have a decent swing, and want a ball that feels good, gives optimal distance as well as decent spin, it is likely you are not going to find all of these in most 2 piece ball, you are likely going to sacrifice one area for another. Even with a speed of 103-105, I have seen some pretty strange ball flights of my driver with balls designed to compress easily, mainly the Noodle and the Precepts, and am convinced it is because of the compression. Kind of a Knuckleball effect. The ball otherwise played great for me, although I never quit got over the fact that I was likely losing something with that ball as far as distance based on what I saw.

Maxfli Black Max
Also I have always been and Maxfli fan, and like the suggestion of the Black Max. Although I am not sure if the $25-30 price range is to high. I also like the Maxfli Rev Tour, which can sometimes be found in the $12-15 range, which is what the Black Max replaced. These are 2 balls I have played for under $30 that IMO closely knit with the Pro V1 characteristics. Although I no longer have a problem switch golf balls on a whim. A few years back I played the Wilson Smart Core Pro Distance, I played it for about 3 years. It was fairly long off the tee, felt nice around the greens, which was unusual for a distance ball, and likely had more spin than most distance balls I have played. It was discontinued 2 balls prior to the True, although can still easily be found for around $19 for 2 dozen. Just my opinion, but after that I tried the Iwound and then the True. The Iwound is probably one of the worst balls I have played, and I prefered the Smart Core over the True. May be worth a shot if you don't require a ball that spins a great deal.

edit 1 - Also, this goes back to if it works for your, then great. I use the Check-Go ball spinner, it works for me, puts a nice line around my ball, and the validity of the device was already debated in here with great detail. I can tell you from experience that I would question the whole premise behind the True. The ones that I tried on the Check-GO do have a balance point. For the claims to be valid, it would spin differently each time, they do not. I actual wonder if this is not the reason the ball was discontinued and is harder to find than even the Smart Core or the Iwound.
 

limpalong

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Maxfli Black Max

I have one question for you: you say that the Crystal Volvik ball is inconsistent off your irons. I'm no physicist, but what I do know tells me that if the ball contacts the clubhead with the same velocity and force vectors, i.e it is swung the same for each shot, then the results of that shot, assuming no variability in the performance characteristics of the ball itself, will be the same.

Are you saying that the Crystal balls are so poorly manufactured that the materials and manufacturing process produce balls with no consistency?

Definitely not a negative slant on the Volvik balls. Love the color combo's... love the feel... But... I do believe my experience with that particular ball highlights the theory of matching ball desin to clubhead speed. You see, the inconsistency isn't between balls... it's with the same ball! That tells me the core design allows the ball to react differently... inconsistenly... with my specific iron speed. It seems that those with lower swing speeds have a much better consistency factor with that ball. The core "reaction" is designed for slower swing speeds. Very similar as to some folks with a relatively slow swing speed having difficulty getting consistency out of a ProV1x. The core of the "x" is designed to react more consistently with the higher swing speeds.

This entire ball science has become almost unmanageable. Used to be the ranges at PGA events were equipped with Titleist balls only! Now and then, you would find an event that would furnish a few Maxfli's at the range for those players. Today... the PGA events must have ProV1's, ProV1x's, Callaway Tour, Callaway Tour 56, Bridgestone's, the new Taylor Made balls... There are a bazillion different balls just being played in a single event. And, the feel and reaction to each differs dramatically when you have the feel that it takes to play at that level.

Some years ago... mid 90's... Top Flite brought out a "T" ball and a "C" ball. The "T" ball was 'designed' to play better off a Taylor Made driver and the "C" ball was 'designed' for use with Callaway equipment. The idea busted!!! Those that played to a level that they could actually tell the difference weren't playing Top Rocks anyway!!! With the ball technology of today, even the beginners can usually feel a difference between a Laddie and a Top Flite distance ball. Will one make a difference over the other re scoring at the beginner level?? Heck, NO! I don't care at what level we play, until we can place a spot somewhere near the center of the clubface on the back of the ball... The first secret is good contact! Once you master a repeating, consistent swing... then you can get wrapped up in ball science. Until then, we hackers just enjoy the OCD fun of over analysis of most everything with this game!!!
 

Pa Jayhawk

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I also have to draw question to this, it seems like who wrote this is trying to put their own interpretation on the meaning of the word compression.

"Compression - Ball compression used to be one of the most important specifications to choose a golf ball. The compression rating, 80, 90 or 100 (even 110 was approved), denotes the hardness of core. The lower the compression, the softer a golf ball feel at impact. "

They give the definition, but then it seems like they put their own spin on it afterwards. Simply because it has to do with the density or softness of the core, doesn't mean the intent of the rating is how soft the ball feels at impact. Granted, they may have a relation but this seems to be ignore the meaning and characteristist of the benifit of compression. I don't view it as a gauge of how soft a ball feels, but a gauge of the how the ball "Compresses". Again, this is more physics. A five year old hits a super ball with a baseball bat, it will likely go further than a same sized golf ball because of the compression and how he swings the bat. Barry Bonds or Mark McGuire hits a Super ball with a baseball bat, if it stays in one piece I doubt I would say there is an advantage to the superball over a golf ball.

I may be wrong, but I don't think the intent of how compression rating relates to golf has to do with how soft the ball feels at impact. Granted it may in fact be related, but if that were the intent I think it would likely be a "Softness" rating, and not a "Compression" rating.

Again though, I may be wrong, not completely sure.
 

MCDavis

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Yep, they're Laddie Extremes. Found 1 box on the shelf and had to use a price checker to get the price.

Giving them as gifts for Christmas.
 
OP
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golflover

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I may be wrong, but I don't think the intent of how compression rating relates to golf has to do with how soft the ball feels at impact. Granted it may in fact be related, but if that were the intent I think it would likely be a "Softness" rating, and not a "Compression" rating.

Again though, I may be wrong, not completely sure.

I have hard a lot of people say how they use hard balls and say they like their compression to be around 110. I guess everyone is not knowing what compression is?

Also when I googled "golf ball compression" many say compression has to do with softness.

Many manufacturers are not even telling us what the compression is on their packaging.

Quite a confusing subject. That is why I think that compression doesn't really matter just go with what feels right for you both on and off the green.
 

Pa Jayhawk

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Also when I googled "golf ball compression" many say compression has to do with softness.
I guess it is all a matter of interpretation. Do the same search with "golf ball compression" including the quotation marks. The top link will show you how they do the testing. Then form your own impressions. I base most of my opinion on how they did the testing, and what it means to my particular game.


" Golf Ball Compression

As golf balls are mass produced, all 3-piece balls and some 2-piece balls are measured by their compression and rated accordingly. In order to do so balls are pressured with a standard weight.

A ball which does not deform is rated Compression 200, a ball which lets itself be deformed by 0.2" or more is rated Compression 0. In-between these two extremes compression increases or decreases with every 0.001" of inch of deformation. Standard Compression rate of a golf ball is 90 or 100. The lower the Compression rate the softer the feel. Most balls are subject to a rating by compression. There are also compression rates of 80 and 110.

Unfortunately there is no official standard which manufacturers adhere to. Therefore a compression rate 90 of manufacturer A is not necessarily the same as compression rate 90 of manufacturer B. Furthermore not every ball has the imprinted compression rate either. The difference can easily amount up to 3.5 points in either direction.

Surveys have shown that low speed swing players should use a ball with a Compression rate of 80. Average speed swing players should use Compression 100 and high speed swing players Compression 110.

Also the influence compression can have in different types of weather is not to be underestimated. According to American surveys high compression balls show better performance in warm weather whereas low compression balls are more suitable for colder weather."
from here.
http://www.golfjoy.com/golf_physics/characters.asp

This really makes it more of a science, and what you want to read into the definition?????

Basically you are sticking a ball on a device that applies pressure to show how it compresses. It is anyones guess how you interpret this. Personally I don't think the device knows how the ball feels, but on my iterpretation it does give me an idea how it will perform given a certain golf swing. Again, just how you interpret the findings.

That is probably the down side to the internet, you will likely get 20 contradictory opinions on what something means, I guess it comes down to which you want to based your opinion base on what you already know.
 

limpalong

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That is probably the down side to the internet, you will likely get 20 contradictory opinions on what something means, I guess it comes down to which you want to based your opinion base on what you already know.

This is the down side of this industry. You WILL get at leat 20 contradictory opinions on what something means. What it comes down to is that I'M ALWAYS correct!!!! Just ask my wife! LOL

If everything in this industry were black & white, we wouldn't have near as many of these discussion boards. The secret, in my opinon, is to hold good honest discussions, attempting to raise the level of the discussion... not necessarily trying to get everyone to think as you do. From what I have seen, so far, on this board... folks seem to enjoy and honor that premise!!! (That's a compliment!!!!)
 

Pa Jayhawk

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If everything in this industry were black & white, we wouldn't have near as many of these discussion boards. The secret, in my opinon, is to hold good honest discussions, attempting to raise the level of the discussion... not necessarily trying to get everyone to think as you do. From what I have seen, so far, on this board... folks seem to enjoy and honor that premise!!! (That's a compliment!!!!)
Agreed!!!

I have always been a firm believer in giving proper criticism in something where I feel I wasted my money or don't like everything about a product or idea. I will likely do the same if I do not fully understand it fully to draw out discussion, and learn more. I see to many people in general that praise a product to save face simply so they will not feel bad. In the next instant you will see them trying to pawn it on eBay. I would rather not be responsible for someone else buying my mistake because I wanted to save face. In the same sense, you will also likely find a lot of gems out there that were otherwise not apparent for the same reason. What got me into discussion boards on golf was looking for reviews, only to find most of the reviews were just praising products, and talking about the 50 yards gained by a new set of irons. On the forum there is recourse, and you will be forced to stand by that conclusion, and further explain.

There are even times where I will disagree with parts of what people say even if I am not far off of the same premise just to further draw attention and try and get a better understanding of the product. Heck, a while back we spent about 30-40 pages discussing the science of a device that spins a ball around in a circle. I think in the beginning, alot was based on speculation, I think in the end everyone had a good understanding of the pluses and minuses. I think we all left still split down the middle, but certainly couldn't say we left much information off the table. I likely left feeling a little different than I did going into that, although I am still a creature of habit and didn't get enough contrary information to change my opinion entirely. I believe the same was true for alot of people on here.
 

Golfhound

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Heard those are great balls for the price. Anyone have experience playing them? What did you like or dislike?
Golfover, I've been playing golf since the 60's. I even reached the level of mini tour professional. I've played every kind of ball imaginable. There are so many really high quality golf balls on the market. But the MC Lady Precept was the best ball I've ever played. My swing speed at the time of use was around 100 MPH with a driver. But has since decreased to the 80's. So the Lady was perfect, just as soft as a Pro V1, and just as far, for half the price. Once the Lady Precept was discontinued, I tried the Laddie which has a slightly harder surface than the Lady. But it was still responsive to the short game and putting. The Laddie is exactly like the Srixon Hi Spin, another good ball which no longer exists. If you play higher than a 9 handicap, then I would say the Laddie is about the best ball you can buy for the money. It's only when you get down to lower single digits that the ball texture is really going to make a difference. I have about 150 Pro V1's in my closet. I love them, plus the equivalent Bridgestone ball. I use them for competition. The Laddie is my every day ball. A Laddie will last longer than a Pro V1 because of its hard cover and it's a 2 piece ball. If you live up north and play in 40 degree weather, you will need a softer ball than the Laddie. The Laddie will feel like a rock. Precept Laddies are still for sale at WalMart.
 
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