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The Fall of Cameron

Sandy

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
907
0
I was ready to buy (desperate is the word) a new SC Studio series but tried them and just felt "ordinary?". I ended up with a Ping Redwood Anser.

If it wasn't for Scotty Cameron, would Ping have ever bought in the Redwood series, or Odyssey have brought in their Black series putters?

I had a Red X2 for a while whenever I hit it on the sweet-spot it had an unbelievable feeling and rolled perfectly. Sadly the Heavy Putter was needed back in the bag as my stroke just wasn't consistent enough to hit the Cameron that well enough times, but I reckon next season some kind of Newport might find its way into my bag...
 

RickinMA

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Feb 3, 2007
1,845
27
OK, just looked up the different types of steel
AISI 11L17 Steel
Component Wt. %
C 0.14 - 0.2
Fe 98.5
Mn 1 - 1.3
P Max 0.04
Pb 0.15 - 0.36
S 0.08 - 0.13

Material Notes:
Iron content calculated as remainder. Lead addition inproves the machinability of 11L17 versus 1117. Manganese content leads to increased hardenability. Used where case hadenability and good machinability are needed, such as in medium duty shafts, studs, pins, and universal joints.

AISI Type 303 Stainless Steel
Component Wt. %
C Max 0.15
Cr 18
Fe 69

Component Wt. %
Mn Max 2
Mo Max 0.6
Ni 9

Component Wt. %
P Max 0.2
S Min 0.15
Si Max 1

they seem kinda similar to me - I thought the whole idea behind Cleveland's CMM material was high carbon which contributed to softer feel

I see carbon steel has more carbon than stainless, but the difference between these two seems kinda small - no?

WBL, care to school us up?
 

ualtim

Carrollton, TX
Supporting Member
Aug 20, 2005
7,779
2,331
Country
United States United States
I had a Red X2 for a while whenever I hit it on the sweet-spot it had an unbelievable feeling and rolled perfectly. Sadly the Heavy Putter was needed back in the bag as my stroke just wasn't consistent enough to hit the Cameron that well enough times, but I reckon next season some kind of Newport might find its way into my bag...

The beauty of the Red X2 is the ability to easily add weight to the head. Just unscrew the head with an allen wrench and add more weight with weighted tape and it stays hidden. More importantly, backweight the puppy. The TLP weights make it easy. I have added 100g's to my Red X2, but I am thinking about getting the 150g insert. Increases the total weight of the X2, raises the balance point, and promotes a straighter stroke just like the HP.
 

figjam

New Member
Aug 29, 2007
357
0
I am glad the Yes! and Odyssey work for you, for me, I could not get the feel from my Yes! even with the Freq Filtered shaft install. The Odyssey white hot was softer, but provided zero feedback for me and distance control was next to impossible. IMHO, nothing provides a better feel/feedback than a milled putter. Use what works for you.

Milled putters are great too and I like them, but maybe the reason I like the yes putter a bit more is that the tecnology really works. The C grooves do get the ball rolling quicker for me, and the feeling from the slightly heavier heads is better for the shitty greens I always play on. On the few occassions I have played on slick greens, I seem to remember putting better with my old ping pal than newer GI putters. I think another thing is that I'm probably not quite a good enough putter to get the most out of the SC. I think I need a few extra GI features on my putters. Scotty's seem like pure putters for guys with a pure stroke. If I hit it out of the sweetspot consistently I would probably feel kinder towards them, but the simple fact is I don't. I've also noticed that Scotty's only seem to sit in bags of low markers.
 

ualtim

Carrollton, TX
Supporting Member
Aug 20, 2005
7,779
2,331
Country
United States United States
I've also noticed that Scotty's only seem to sit in bags of low markers.

You obviously have not seen some of my scores lately.:laugh:

Heavier head weights can be had in Scotties and other milled putters. Most of my Cameron are 350g heads or have been reweighted to 350g plus. Yes! putters normally come in a 355g's so that weight is not too hard to duplicate. If your really having problems with hitting the center of your putter face, you may want to try out that new putter by Macgreggor/Bobby Grace that is designed for those who can not consistantly putt with center face contact. Putss the ball nearly the same distance just about anywhere you contact the ball on the face.
 

Adam Pettman

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2005
2,765
0
I've been on the course, I kicked ass today, I played the last 9 holes in 2 under par and outdrove a rugby playing 30 year old ( I'm a 17 yr old with the build of a clothes hanger) I put the ball 20 yards short of the 17th green, its by far the longest drive I have ever hit and I hit it while playing an 8 handicap :)
Kirkcudbright - Golf - Course Details
 

figjam

New Member
Aug 29, 2007
357
0
You obviously have not seen some of my scores lately.:laugh:

Heavier head weights can be had in Scotties and other milled putters. Most of my Cameron are 350g heads or have been reweighted to 350g plus. Yes! putters normally come in a 355g's so that weight is not too hard to duplicate. If your really having problems with hitting the center of your putter face, you may want to try out that new putter by Macgreggor/Bobby Grace that is designed for those who can not consistantly putt with center face contact. Putss the ball nearly the same distance just about anywhere you contact the ball on the face.

Thanks for the tip, if I ever have enough spare cash to spring for a new putter I will try it out. At the moment though I am working harder on my stroke, and I'm hitting them alot purer. I've got a centre shaft Ray Cook that is working well at the moment so I'm sticking with it for the time being. The Macgregor would be a good putter to have as a back up when the stroke is off though.
 

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
8
I've been on the course, I kicked ass today, I played the last 9 holes in 2 under par and outdrove a rugby playing 30 year old ( I'm a 17 yr old with the build of a clothes hanger) I put the ball 20 yards short of the 17th green, its by far the longest drive I have ever hit and I hit it while playing an 8 handicap :)
Kirkcudbright - Golf - Course Details

Ha ha - "clothes hanger"! That's pretty funny. Glad to hear your playing well.
 

Lil_Huth

Well-Known Member
Sep 14, 2007
568
0
Lol I assume you are not playing the Medal tees, if you are I wanna see you hit a drive like that lol. Good scores though!
 

Adam Pettman

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2005
2,765
0
Lol I assume you are not playing the Medal tees, if you are I wanna see you hit a drive like that lol. Good scores though!

God no I wasnt off the medal tee's, you arent allowed to play off the medal tees at my home course unless your playing in an official competition.

As I was walking up the fairway I was trying to make polite conversation while scanning the fairway and the rough in my normal "landing zone" and low and behold my ball was sitting miles up the fairway, a wedge and two putts later and I walked off with a par smiling.
 

JEFF4i

She lives!
Supporting Member
Jul 3, 2006
13,545
95
As I was walking up the fairway I was trying to make polite conversation while scanning the fairway and the rough in my normal "landing zone" and low and behold my ball was sitting miles up the fairway, a wedge and two putts later and I walked off with a par smiling.

OH YEAHH!!!
 

jick

Well-Known Member
Oct 17, 2007
5
0
I started this topic in another forum and it was for consumption in that forum only. I had mixed feelings about it being posted in another forum without my permission. In the end, it was all good because I felt I wanted to share my opinions with others in the Internet.

Ever since that thread exploded, I have received private messages and emails in that forum - some from extremely reliable insiders (who I shall not name) who have confirmed that Cameron has production putters that are indeed skim-milled in a Chicago-based company. Nothing is wrong with skim-milled per se, and it actually reduces wastage and cuts costs - but one can still turn out a quality product. The only problem is that Cameron is secretive about it. Why this is hidden from the public is something I don't understand.

Contrary to some of the public is led to believe, Cameron's production putters are outsourced and not produced in the studio. Check one of the companies Cameron used to work with and photos of his putters here: in the k-techmachine website when you click on their buffing and assembly section and the parts gallery sections - so nothing is also wrong with this. But when Cameron sells posters of himself in front of his milling machine, or posts production pics of his Red X making people believe it is made in his studio, there is misrepresentation there. The collectors would then argue that Cameron's studio and in-house milling machines cannot handle the rigors of mass production but that Cameron's limited editions must be made in house. Still they are wrong. Even the limited runs are subcontracted outside - so why they sell for three times the price is beyond comprehension.

For proof that Cameron's limited putters are also outsourced, you just need to check his fan forum called The Cameron Collector where there is a topic called "Where are OTR's Milled" and for those too lazy to check it, there is a post there that says this:

OK. Bear with me. This will be LONG. My source, again, is Stewart. He loves putters. He's from Scotland. Has a nice Scottish accent so it was cool to talk to him about golf and hear how he says Scutty Camrun.

FIRST - K-Tech is ONLY in AMERICA, all SC Putters that they do are 100% American Made.

SECOND - There are TWO shops that do this, K-Tech and Western CNC. (More on that later.)

K-Tech has been making putters for 16 years. They started with Dunlop and Wilson, the Mizuno. THey have made "many - many putters for Callaway...correct that, Odyssee" as well as some for Taylor Made.

Up until 10 years ago they used to shaft and grip as well, mostly Diawa and Mizuno.

WHAT THEY DO FOR SCOTTY CAMERON

"We make the entire head. We manufacture the components, assemble the components, fill the components, mill the faces, paint the components, and put the final finish on. We then send the whole head to Scotty Cameron for shaft and grip."

I asked him how they got into this business.

"This is just too much volume for Accushnet. Plus, the weight is critical on these putters. They can't even be off by a gram. The weight on the RedX is really tough to get right. Getting the right fixturing for all of this is really tough. We are a PRECISION shop. You'd have to have a set-up like ours to do this work. We have 2 buildings. Each building is about 16,000 square feet. One building is all golf. The other is almost all Aerospace. In that building we make stuff for the military, like parts for F-16s, Tomahawk missile parts, things like that. We have to be precise. The pictures on our web-site will be updated in about 4 or 6 weeks. We have several horizontal machines in place now. Not for golf, but for other things. You'll see in the new pictures."

I told him I had a couple of really nice special edition putters, that maybe K-Tech did the work, but, "I guess you only do the regular putters I see in the stores."

HIS RESPONSE!?!?!?!

"Actually we do special edition putters as well. Things like 150 piece runs and the like. Sometimes we send those back to Scutty for final finish, sometimes we finish them here and just send the heads back like usual. WE MAKE THE MY GIRL PUTTERS EACH YEAR, IN FACT. THE ONE YEAR WE DIDN'T MAKE IT WAS WHEN IT WAS THE STUDIO STYLE. WESTERN CNC MADE IT THAT YEAR, LIKE 2004 I THINK IT WAS. WE MADE THE HOLIDAY STUDIO PUTTER THAT YEAR."

Lastly he said, "We just need to be ready all the time. When Scutty comes here with a design and says he's ready to have some made, we have to be able to make them!"

Also, I edited my original topic in the other forum to include this story about how badly Cameron treated a Japan Tour winner (who has since passed away):

I'd just like to make an addition which is a story I got straight from a Japan Tour professional (who is top 20 in Asian Tour now and used to be in the world top 64).

Sometime in the late-90s or early 00's, this touring pro (whom I shall just call "MF") went with his good buddy Roger Mckay in the Scotty Cameron van in some Japan Tour event.

Roger Mackay was a pretty good golfer who wins around once a year in the Japan circuit. A quick look at his resume shows that he has 8 wins there. Apparently, Scotty did not know him or maybe since he looked Caucasian and not like one of his Japanese worshippined, Scotty did no acknowledge him.

Roger was holding some of Scotty's putters and saw one that caught his fancy. Scotty just shook his head and said no to Roger. So both Roger and MF left the van.

That week, Roger won the tournament. After he won, Scotty came up to him and told him "Roger come in, get any putter you want." Now it was Roger's turn to shake his head.

After this incident, Roger and MF vowed never to play a Scotty putter ever.

Roger had an untimely death due to illness - not sure of the exact date but sometime in 2001 or 2002. He passed away in his late 30's. Up to this day, that professional MF is a Titleist staff pro but still doesn't have a Scotty in his bag.

Other sources well-connected to the tour is that Cameron feels threatened by the smaller milled putter makers as he would rather put them down instead of pushing his own putter. Some tour players have been taken aback by this attitude, and a number of prominent names (some who used Cameron not-so-long ago) will never touch a Cameron putter again (I won't name names, but it would be obvious anyway).

Finally, in at least one Asian market (the country I shall not name), a distributor mentioned to me that Cameron severely limits his distribution and starts with extremely small quantities - such as allocating a total of six (6) putters for one country. This creates an artificial demand and people fall in line to get Camerons with up to a two-month waiting list. Talk about market control and savvy.

These are just some of the practices that I am not so fond of. I know the person should be separated from the product, but when a person stamps his name on the product, he becomes sort of a mini-public figure subject to scrutiny and his product is said to reflect his person.

I just want to reiterate that many of what I say are opinions and information from sources - and not personally witnessed by me (like for example, I have not entered personally or seen their skim-milling facility). Sorry for the long rant but I hope some of you here may find some value in what I'm saying.
 

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