The Great Gun Debate

[mddubya]

Honestly now Dubya, your reply is the first time I've ever conceded ground on such a debate so well done there. I've never considered the historical association with guns which could be embedded within the psyche and I've got to admit that it is a compelling argument.

Over here there has been an issue with knife crime, so the police offered amnesty and put disposal points all over the place in areas of high knife crime rates. They had quite a good result and now they know they can concentrate on the more hardened criminals. Would this not apply to the "devil's advocate" scenario you mentioned? At first the bad guys would have all the guns, but the supply chain would dry up and the police could concentrate on targetting the now illegal guns? In maybe one generation guns could be gone (well as good as)

There are so many guns presently in the USA, that even IF this did work, there would be so many years during which the criminals had guns and the honest citizens didn't, that it would potentionally cure the over population problem. Long before the "gun problem" was solved. In other words, no, that would not work here.

 

[JEFF4i]

Another Bright Shining Lie by Michael Gaddy Is a disgraceful source. Truly.

The CBS one is decent enough, but I can't help but feel that the "assault" on assault weapons is anything new to Holder, or the Democratic party.

That said, no, a gun ban on all guns in the United States is mostly impractical, imho.

 

[EnglishGolfer]

Englishgolfer... Did you read any of those links I posted, or was it too much?

As far as "knife turn in" points.. Rather silly.. Who the hell is going to turn in a knife? I don't get it... Your normal steak knife will do as much damage as a grandfathers pocket knife. It's all a sharp blade used to cut when you narrow it down... I don't understand it?

I've seen in inner cities in the US, where they do "gun trade in" programs. They offer people to turn in their guns, for gift cards.. Bring in a rifle and get $50 gift card to somewhere.. Point is.. only the people who stole guns, or had something illegal turned them in. The few that did were people that lived in ghettos, and were in poverty. It was easy to steal a gun, get money for it, and steal another later.

They ran the numbers on most of the guns turned in.. Most were reported stolen. Ironic, huh?

1) Firstly I do have other things to do. And to be honest you are so inflexible on your views I don't really want to waste my time.

2) Regarding the "rather silly" as you put it, knife turn in points, they were a success. You can come up with glib replies about cutlery all you want but when teenagers are killing innocent people with machetes, samurai swords and the like as part of gang rights of passage it doesn't make me smile very much.

3) Theft is a preferable crime to murder or assault with a deadly weapon to me. They shouldn't bother even checking the numbers on the guns, they should just melt them down because if you can't keep your gun safe from a passing hobo then you definitely shouldn't have one.

 

[nututhugame]

1) Firstly I do have other things to do. And to be honest you are so inflexible on your views I don't really want to waste my time.

2) Regarding the "rather silly" as you put it, knife turn in points, they were a success. You can come up with glib replies about cutlery all you want but when teenagers are killing innocent people with machetes, samurai swords and the like as part of gang rights of passage it doesn't make me smile very much.

3) Theft is a preferable crime to murder or assault with a deadly weapon to me. They shouldn't bother even checking the numbers on the guns, they should just melt them down because if you can't keep your gun safe from a passing hobo then you definitely shouldn't have one.

Do you want to know what would put an immediate halt to machete and sword attacks........ GUNS. Jeez, get some real gangsters.

I just don't even understand where the passing hobo scenario even applies. This just let's me know that you have absolutely no idea about what it's like here or why. I'd also like to know who "they" is. Who is so simply going to just melt all of the guns down? I'm no history buff, but didn't hitler take all the guns via gun registry shortly before he started slaughtering a whole ethnicity?

 

[EnglishGolfer]

Do you want to know what would put an immediate halt to machete and sword attacks........ GUNS. Jeez, get some real gangsters. Spoken like a true moron.

I just don't even understand where the passing hobo scenario even applies. This just let's me know that you have absolutely no idea about what it's like here or why. If you'd care to read what was written, he said that there were gun amnesty points but when they checked the serial numbers on those handed in they turned out to be stolen as they were common targets for people in poverty who got money for them. I'd also like to know who "they" is. Who is so simply going to just melt all of the guns down? Whoever runs the drop off points, I assume it's the police as it is over here, it's not rocket science. I'm no history buff, but didn't hitler take all the guns via gun registry shortly before he started slaughtering a whole ethnicity?

I hate to say it but you're perpetuating your world wide stereotype with such comments, and it's not a good one. From our side where guns aren't carried by everyday folk, we are seeing an increase in gun crime (still low but any at all is given massive coverage in the media), but rather than arming everybody it makes a lot more sense to focus police resources on preventing it. So where would you rather live, somewhere where gun crime is very low / non existent or somewhere where you feel you need a gun to defend yourself?

Come back Dubya, I'm trying to resist replying to some of the more ....... <insert word that best applies here> replies but it's a very slow day at work and I can't help rising to the bait!

 

[BigJim13]

Do you want to know what would put an immediate halt to machete and sword attacks........ GUNS. Jeez, get some real gangsters.

I just don't even understand where the passing hobo scenario even applies. This just let's me know that you have absolutely no idea about what it's like here or why. I'd also like to know who "they" is. Who is so simply going to just melt all of the guns down? I'm no history buff, but didn't hitler take all the guns via gun registry shortly before he started slaughtering a whole ethnicity?

I don't know that I buy into the whole, "if I had a gun then nobody would mess with me" theory. I think if more people had guns then all that would happen would be more gun deaths. Whether it would be by accidents or self defense or flat out murder...I just don't know that I buy that whole line of thought.

 

[nututhugame]

I hate to say it but you're perpetuating your world wide stereotype with such comments, and it's not a good one. From our side where guns aren't carried by everyday folk, we are seeing an increase in gun crime (still low but any at all is given massive coverage in the media), but rather than arming everybody it makes a lot more sense to focus police resources on preventing it. So where would you rather live, somewhere where gun crime is very low / non existent or somewhere where you feel you need a gun to defend yourself?

Come back Dubya, I'm trying to resist replying to some of the more ....... <i><insert word="" that="" best="" applies="" here=""></insert></i> replies but it's a very slow day at work and I can't help rising to the bait!

Isn't it obvious where i'd rather live? Isn't also obvious that we don't really care about world wide stereotypes? Are we really resorting to name calling? And as far as the who... i'm asking who will fund it? The feds, locally, state? What i'm getting at is i'd like to stay away from broad sweeping laws smacked down by the feds that will affect citizens who follow the law. Those laws only affect people who follow them.

 

[fisher]

I'd rather live in a free country than one that still has a queen.

 

[EnglishGolfer]

What i'm getting at is i'd like to stay away from broad sweeping laws smacked down by the feds that will affect citizens who follow the law. Those laws only affect people who follow them.

Would you be really bothered if they managed to get a vast majority of guns off the street but you could still attend a gun club and shoot as much as you wanted? The only difference I could see is that instead of transporting a weapon to and from the place you'd just leave it there.

 

[FATC1TY]

1) Firstly I do have other things to do. And to be honest you are so inflexible on your views I don't really want to waste my time.

2) Regarding the "rather silly" as you put it, knife turn in points, they were a success. You can come up with glib replies about cutlery all you want but when teenagers are killing innocent people with machetes, samurai swords and the like as part of gang rights of passage it doesn't make me smile very much.

3) Theft is a preferable crime to murder or assault with a deadly weapon to me. They shouldn't bother even checking the numbers on the guns, they should just melt them down because if you can't keep your gun safe from a passing hobo then you definitely shouldn't have one.

Nice reply. So you wanted to go down the road of gun debate.. Then you slam eClark for his replies.. Then you want to talk guns.. Now when the plate is on the table, you act full.

Now when someone comes up with some links, media coverage, and wide spread info, you have "stuff to do"..And then you don't want to waste your time with my views, that you deem wrong.. You haven't responded to anything with ANY substance.

Sounds like you got into something you haven't thought out. Or perhaps you just agree with the garage your government tells you.

If they took away all the ninja swords, and the machetes, how do you guys cut down tall grass and vines? I've never been one to care for a sword, but even if I concede that it's silly and they gave them away, how does that stop any other blade from being used? Most knife crimes in the public aren't huge knives being brandished. At home, yeah I could see someone slicing someone open with anything. But walking down the road and mugging someone with a samurai sword?? A knife is a knife. No matter how short or big it is.

And your last reply is the problem with alot of liberal society today. Your okay being robbed.. Point is, most robberies aren't strong armed. They often involved a weapon, or something to gain leverage. Are you seriously fine with some big guy walking up to you, and politely asking for your wallet and car keys, without trying to intimidate you with something or force? If thats the case, then no one here will make any sense to you. Robbery's happen with weapons.. Threats are made. Your well-being is in danger. Your robbery can become an assult within seconds..

But, don't worry about replying to me. Obviously your too busy, and my opinion isn't worth replying to some how.

 

[EnglishGolfer]

I thought I sounded familiar: http://www.shottalk.com/forum/no-golf-you/7155-calling-all-avid-gun-owners-if-there-any.html Those who ignore history......

This is from a few years ago, where have all these one time members gone? They were here every minute of every day almost.

 

[FATC1TY]

Thats a 3 year old thread.... What's your point?

The final point I'm making, is the last reply you had to eClark was that he couldn't come up with a intellectual and decent rebuttal to the thread. You pushed it aside as if you were right, and asked that a thread be made. Here we are, and you've ran out of gas, and use the normal generic remarks that your busy, or that you can't be bothered to come up with anything. Now your using 3 year old threads to voice your stance..

 

[FATC1TY]

Would you be really bothered if they managed to get a vast majority of guns off the street but you could still attend a gun club and shoot as much as you wanted? The only difference I could see is that instead of transporting a weapon to and from the place you'd just leave it there.

What good is my gun locked up some place that I can't use it for the way I want to use it?

Do you want to park your car 30 miles from your house and walk to it everyday in order to use it?

What sense does that make?

 

[eclark53520]

I don't know that I buy into the whole, "if I had a gun then nobody would mess with me" theory. I think if more people had guns then all that would happen would be more gun deaths. Whether it would be by accidents or self defense or flat out murder...I just don't know that I buy that whole line of thought.

BigJim,

I think you are mistaken about what our thought process is on carrying a weapon.

We do not carry because we think that having a gun makes us bigger than anyone else. We do not carry because we think we think no one will mess with us if we have a gun. If you met myself or Fat in a place we were legally able to carry a weapon, you would NEVER know(barring previous information) that we had a weapon on our person. This 'notion' that people with guns act like billy bad ass is 100% off base and could not be further from the truth.

That stereotypical behavior is portrayed by some individuals. No doubt about it, thats why the stereotype exists. However, those people that act like this, are not the people that go through training and acquire a license to carry a weapon. Those people are the ones who think they can gain respect by carrying a gun. Where is the only place you will get credit for carrying a gun? The streets. Carrying illegally just increases the credit received from the street. Being a gang banger and then getting a license to conceal carry isn't 'cool'.

So i cal completely see how people get the notion that we want to carry a gun because then nobody can touch us, but it simply is not how the law abiding, respectable, and responsible citizens behave in this society.

On the whole, if more people had guns, there would be more gun deaths theory. I submit THIS webpage that is updated monthly by the Florida state government. This is 100% UNBIASED numbers.

Of the 1,593,602 licenses Florida state has issued. A TOTAL of 5,035 of them have been revoked. Of that 5,035, 66 were rule changes, 521 were crimes committed before getting a license, 121 were 'other'. So that leaves 4,317 of them to crimes AFTER getting a license. Of those 4,317, 167 of them involved a firearm. It does not say if those firearms were used, only that the crime involved one. So that equals .002% of people being licensed are committing crimes after they are licensed. Furthermore, only .0001% of those licensed by the state to conceal carry will commit a crime that involves a gun.

So from what i can gather, more guns <> more gun deaths.

Another thing that is not tracked(that i could find) is legally carried weapons that were used to save a life. Another number that is impossible to track, crimes that were not committed because the offender decided the odds were too great that the victim would have a gun. The offenders do not call up the local police to surrender that kind of information i would imagine.

Statistics on the non-licensed general public i could not find in my light search.

 

[EnglishGolfer]

Thats a 3 year old thread.... What's your point?

The final point I'm making, is the last reply you had to eClark was that he couldn't come up with a intellectual and decent rebuttal to the thread. You pushed it aside as if you were right, and asked that a thread be made. Here we are, and you've ran out of gas, and use the normal generic remarks that your busy, or that you can't be bothered to come up with anything. Now your using 3 year old threads to voice your stance..

Jeezus! I'm trying to reply to everyone who opposes my POV the best I can whilst at work, what more do you want? See how many posts I've done in the last 12 months and compare it to how many on this one topic, you will see that I'm making an effort.

Furthermore I thought it was perfectly relevant to post a link to the previous time this came up as many of the points were the same but some of them have not been covered so far.

I was concentrating more on Dubya's replies as he was the 1st person to present me with something I had not heard before, plus his manner and syntax are much more appealing.

Would I be close to the mark to summarise like this....

You like guns as you are paranoid that there are people out there intent on entering your home and harming your loved ones, or maybe you just like to feel like a big man and you use that as your justification.

I don't like guns as they are made to kill people and they are readily available to the most stupid moron your country can offer to do with as he wishes. As I've previously stated all criminals/potential criminals who aren't locked up are members of the public, your way makes it easier for them obtain a gun. Constantly the pro-gun argument refers to people entering your property, but what about when your loved ones are out and about and a gun wielding maniac is on the loose? There are scenarios that suit both arguments equally, but at the end of the day it is down to right and wrong. Is killing people right? Well I'm in no way religious but even I know the answer is "No", so why do you need a gun?