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.5" over standard shafts-pros vs cons

limpalong

Mental Ward Escapee
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Oct 18, 2006
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Thanks for chiming in, Limpy.

So buying a set 1-inch over standard and choking up 1-inch does what? LOL

I found this out the hard way; and thought I was on the right track due to reading. Nothing beats a good fitting, eh?

What should he do with his Eye2+ irons at this point? I understand the Ping fitting system, but when it comes to reshafting them as a DIYer, I'm curious.

Thanks in advance...

Just when you think you've got this game of golf mastered... it'll jump up and kick you in the shins. This discussion is similar. We're taking a relatively simply, mechanical task and making a huge deal out of it!!

You can lengthen (or shorten) shafts all day long in a set of irons and never effect the lie angle. Again... the ONLY way you can change the lie angle is to put the head in a loft/lie machine... or in a vise... and bend it! So, if you put an inch longer shaft in a club... and choke down an inch on the shaft... you've changed nothing. If you put an inch extension in a shaft, use all the shaft, and stand up straighter than you did with the shorter shaft... you've changed nothing. If, however, you assume the identical address position with the lengthened shaft, either you would shove the head of the club an inch down into the ground (probably not the case LOL) or, slide the head away from you close to that inch you lengthened the club. As you slide the club out and away from you, the toe will come off the ground. That, then, becomes upright.

Whew!! I'm tired! LOL Let's get to the meat of the question. The gentleman who was inquiring about what effect his adding of 1/2" to his Pings has a valid concern. Is it worth the time and money? Will it help my game? Will it backfire and hurt my game? I don't blame him for questioning before he attacks his clubs with saws, epoxies, and dollars. But... to be perfectly honest... not one of us on this board can honestly tell him what difference that 1/2" will make!!!

The added 1/2" could be compensated for by a slight change in posture and he would see no appreciable difference. Or, that small extesion could make quite noticable changes in ball flight. It does not cost much to extend a shaft 1/2". Even if he purchases an extension made for the job, a new grip, and a little dab of epoxy he's probably not out 10 bucks. If it were me, I'd do one mid-iron. I'd put the 1/2" in my 7 iron and play it a couple of rounds. It should become evident pretty soon as to whether the difference is worth completing the task throughout the set.
 

RickinMA

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Feb 3, 2007
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toe up is flat - heel up is upright - it's the angle between the shaft and the ground between the clubhead and the golfer

I think it is easiest to ignore the toe and heel - if the soles of both clubs are properly flush to the ground, the angle of the shaft will be more upright on the 1* upright club (the golfer would be a little closer to the ball with the upright lie angle when the club is still soled flat on the ground)

Okay, what am I missing in this thread? Can't believe Lyle hasn't jumped in to this discussion.
Toe up is UPRIGHT... Toe down is FLAT... If you extend a shaft in an iron, theoretically, the iron will play more upright. The longer shaft pushes the head away from your feet, moving the toe higher... more UPRIGHT!

The iron lie angle does not change by adding shaft length. The only way you can change the lie angle is to bend the club. It just will set up more upright... if your hands are in the same identical position they were when the club was shorter.

If the club is too upright, you will likely hook the ball. The heel will catch the turf while the toe... being higher... will close and send the ball left. If the club is too flat, you will likely push/slice the ball. The toe will catch more turf than the heel and you will leave the face open, sending the ball right.

Cobra was one of the first to move to the more upright lies, now considered somewhat standard. When the King Cobra irons were released in the early 90's, folks were amazed how easy they were to hit draws with. Alas, DeLaCruz, Cobra's ghuru at that time, had built them more upright and with stronger lofts. Suddenly, you saw Callaway and others jump on the bandwagon, because that's what the masses demanded. When some hacker could hit his Cobra 9-iron 150... the players in his group didn't want to be thought less a man. Over the years we evolved from 50 degree pitching wedges to the PW's of today harboring in the mid 40 degree range.

Sorry, I digressed. As the toe moves up... as the angle of the club/shaft increases and moves closer to 90 degrees... the club becomes more upright. As the toe moves down... as the angle of the club/shaft decreases and moves closer to zero (if the shaft and blade were a straight line)... the club becomes flatter.

DaveT's CLub Design Notes

This guy gives some exaggerated pictures to explaiin lie angle.

I was just hoping to clarify this one last time - please help me to better understand this (I did post quickly before (during a meeting, but that's a separate issue)

lie angle is the angle the shaft makes with the ground in the part of the triangle near the clubhead - right? a putter has a lie angle of like 71* and is more upright than a driver at say 58* - lay a club flat on the ground it's at 0* and if the shaft was 90* upright it would point straight down - right?

the lie angle on my 7 iron is 62.5* - If I moved closer to the ball and made the shaft angle to the ground 64* - it would make the heel of the club go up wouldn't it? - to make the club sit flush on the ground, it would need to be bent upright

maybe this is not the way most people think about lie angle? or am I still missing something?
 

GoodDay

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Sep 22, 2006
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Thanks for the reply, Limpalong.

You touched upon the subject of posture. So clubs that may be too long or too short may affect the serious golfer's swing without him "not quite" really knowing it?

So longer clubs, in turn, affect one's swing, which, in turn, affects the mind to psychologically adjust; and (again, in turn) that might cause the serious golfer that wants to get to the next level to automatically, subliminally and physically adjust to ill-fitted clubs during the swing process?

Unless they religiously choke up to a regular chalk line on the irons they got a deal on and finally realize they need the hosels bent?

:laugh:

Got it. Whew.
 

RickinMA

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Feb 3, 2007
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found a picture

found this - maybe it better describes the 62.5* lie angle of my 7 iron
loft-lie-irons.jpg
 

limpalong

Mental Ward Escapee
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Oct 18, 2006
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I forgot!
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I was just hoping to clarify this one last time - please help me to better understand this (I did post quickly before (during a meeting, but that's a separate issue)

lie angle is the angle the shaft makes with the ground in the part of the triangle near the clubhead - right? a putter has a lie angle of like 71* and is more upright than a driver at say 58* - lay a club flat on the ground it's at 0* and if the shaft was 90* upright it would point straight down - right?

the lie angle on my 7 iron is 62.5* - If I moved closer to the ball and made the shaft angle to the ground 64* - it would make the heel of the club go up wouldn't it? - to make the club sit flush on the ground, it would need to be bent upright

maybe this is not the way most people think about lie angle? or am I still missing something?

Rick... you're there!!!! You've got it!! Almost....
You are perfectly correct in how you have the angle and degrees of angle analyzed. Where we run into trouble is your "exercise" with the 7-iron.

Let's take it a step at a time. The lie angle is 62.5. Move closer to the ball and the shaft goes more vertical, increasing the angle, to your assumed 64 degrees. So far... so good. The heel would come up so you would bend the iron head to a lie angle of 64 degrees to make the sole parallel with the ground. Still with me? Now, back away from the ball to where you started. The toe comes up and the iron is more upright at 64 degrees. Now, you'd need to bend it flatter.... back to 62.5... to get the toe back down.

Let's exaggerate the original poster's issue with extending his Pings. Let's do it in the same genre as your 7-iron example. He's standing there with is 62.5 degree 7-iron addressing the ball with the sole flat on the ground. Now, let's extend that shaft, say 6"! (Using a much longer extension may assist us in working through this maize.) Now, he wouldn't raise his hands 6" would he? He would back away from the ball until he could hold the grip properly in his hands. Doing so would bring the toe of the club up off the ground... dramatically! (See, still working like you explained.) The clubhead is still the same lie angle as before, it's just playing much more upright.

Like I said, you've got it figured out. The ONLY reason I jumped into this discussion was I thought sure I saw a poster state that when the lie became more upright the toe went down... just the opposite of what you and I have worked through. The quick and easy pointer, here, is "upright = toe up"... UP=UP As the toe goes up the angle gets closer to 90 degrees and the club becomes more upright!
 

RickinMA

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Feb 3, 2007
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The quick and easy pointer, here, is "upright = toe up"... UP=UP As the toe goes up the angle gets closer to 90 degrees and the club becomes more upright!

I'm pretty sure I understand it (and what it does to the ball) upright = draw like when the ball is above your feet - you just explain it a whole lot better

sorry for the confusion guys

it's probably not right, but I was taught to sole the club properly first, then I just adjusted to swing on that plane - now that i've started reading a bit more about this, I'd rather adjust the equipment to me, instead of adjusting to the equipment
 

dave.

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Mar 20, 2005
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Its a common misconception to say too flat and the toe digs in, too upright and the heel digs in causing the toe to come round and you get a draw etc etc etc.

This is what happens, but not because the heel or toe dig in, its due to the the shaft bend during the swing, ie the lie angle will alter from its address position,hence why the OEMs make the lies more upright, it encourages a draw because of the chnage in lie durting the downswing. This is also why the better the player the more accurate they need the lie angles to be, and why many many players prefer FLATTER lie angles in the drivers. I use 58, OEMs will spec 60 and above on longer shafts, say 46. This encourages a draw, as described. (thats my understanding of it anyway).

Remember, you do not need a player or even a shaft to measure leie angles, you can measure with just a head, ITS THE PLAYER AND THEIR ADDRESS POSITION, AND THEN SWING, THAT EFFECT LIE ANGLES. When someone says "1 degree upright" what is this? Upright from what? How they measure it at address, more upright from a chart, from the standard specs, what exactly?

All that matters is HOW THE PLAYER ADDRESSES THE BALL AND THEN THE LIE ANGLE AT IMPACT.

1" longer and then gripping down?

Get into your adress position and grip the clun NORMALLY. Then look at the the ball flight, work backwards
 

indacup

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Jun 1, 2007
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Iowa
Good lord reading this thread was like reading some Russian novel...I'm so confused!

Now, you are thinking about making your irons a half inch longer to allow you to grip down a half inch?

Because you like choking down?

please explain what's going on here....


thanks!
 

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