• Welcome To ShotTalk.com!

    We are one of the oldest and largest Golf forums on the internet with golfers from around the world sharing tips, photos and planning golf outings.

    Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon!

Am I being Unreasonable?

88cupfan

Well-Known Member
Jan 5, 2009
60
0
I feel for you about the smoke but honestly guys, don't we live in the land of the free? Shouldn't businesses have the right to decide whether or not to allow smoking in their private business? We have the right as patrons to use the establishment as it is or pass. Our civil liberties are being surrendered and taken away from us right and left. Its just like gun laws, The 2nd amendment gives us the right to keep and BARE arms. But because some liberal thinks so, none in Washington DC is allowed to defend themselves. Where does it end? How would you like the government to tell you that you have to wear a helmet while driving a car or ahile playing golf? The founding fathers of this country would have a fit if they could see this mess we call "the land of liberty". Freedom my crack!
 
OP
David Hillman

David Hillman

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2008
836
0
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #17
Email sent to general manager. I told the story, mentioned that 'my favorite golf forum' raised the possibility of illegality, quoted the Act, and simply asked for my money back off our two cards. It would be amazing to me to find that they didn't have lawyers looking at this Act and finding a loophole in it, before allowing smoking in the first place. It's not like this is a little-known law, I can't imagine they could be flagrantly in violation and need me to point it out.

We'll see what happens...
 

Pa Jayhawk

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2005
7,196
62
Country
United States United States
I feel for you about the smoke but honestly guys, don't we live in the land of the free? Shouldn't businesses have the right to decide whether or not to allow smoking in their private business? We have the right as patrons to use the establishment as it is or pass. Our civil liberties are being surrendered and taken away from us right and left. Its just like gun laws, The 2nd amendment gives us the right to keep and BARE arms. But because some liberal thinks so, none in Washington DC is allowed to defend themselves. Where does it end? How would you like the government to tell you that you have to wear a helmet while driving a car or ahile playing golf? The founding fathers of this country would have a fit if they could see this mess we call "the land of liberty". Freedom my crack!
So are you asking if people or businesses should have the right to operate outside of the law???

If they are not in violation, and they may well not, then my opinion is to try and work it out or go somewhere else if the ideals of the business does not meet your own and you cannot reach a satisfactory agreement. It is the attitude I took with my golf course this year.

If they are in violation, then no, they don't have that right. If every business and individual has the right to ignore laws because it is not in agreement with their own values, then you are referring to something that contradicts what our founding fathers had in mind by "Freedoms". I believe that would be similar to arguing that our government had anarchy in mind as far as freedom.
 
OP
David Hillman

David Hillman

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2008
836
0
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #19
I feel for you about the smoke but honestly guys, don't we live in the land of the free? Shouldn't businesses have the right to decide whether or not to allow smoking in their private business? We have the right as patrons to use the establishment as it is or pass. Our civil liberties are being surrendered and taken away from us right and left. Its just like gun laws, The 2nd amendment gives us the right to keep and BARE arms. But because some liberal thinks so, none in Washington DC is allowed to defend themselves. Where does it end? How would you like the government to tell you that you have to wear a helmet while driving a car or ahile playing golf? The founding fathers of this country would have a fit if they could see this mess we call "the land of liberty". Freedom my crack!

There's a huge difference between the two, though. You have a right to bare arms... you do not have a right to the air I breathe. If smokers had as much consideration for others as heroine addicts do, I'd have no problem with them. Smackheads inject their drug directly into their own body, and don't force anyone else to deal with it. Why can't smokers just get nicotine IVs and leave the air alone? Actually, you can, with a patch. Perfect!

And for the record, here in Chicago we have no 2nd Amendment rights either... and it's more dangerous than Iraq, literally. More Americans were killed in Chicago in '08 than in Iraq.
 

88cupfan

Well-Known Member
Jan 5, 2009
60
0
My point is that no one should have the right to tell you how to run your business. That went right through one ear and out the other evidently. If you want a smoke free driving range, build one and open it with signs all over stating that there is no smoking permitted. But dont make the guy who put up the cash for the thing live by your rules. THATS NOT LIBERTY! You get my point?
 

88cupfan

Well-Known Member
Jan 5, 2009
60
0
Owners of private businesses should have the right to run their establishments the way they want to. If you want a smoke free driving range build one for yourself.
 

Pa Jayhawk

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2005
7,196
62
Country
United States United States
My point is that no one should have the right to tell you how to run your business. That went right through one ear and out the other evidently. If you want a smoke free driving range, build one and open it with signs all over stating that there is no smoking permitted. But dont make the guy who put up the cash for the thing live by your rules. THATS NOT LIBERTY! You get my point?
It didn't go in one ear and out the other, just disagree with you. I think a business should be bound by the law, just as in your argument, while I love my firearms, I do not feel a business should have the right to say it is legal to discharge them in their building when it is not in accordance with the law.

Liberty is only a portion of what makes this country great. Without law you would not only likely lose your liberty but your freedom as well. Maybe I should open a business as a crack house, I'm sure it would be a hit, and since it is my business I should have that right.

The difference is, you have a right to pursue overturning laws if you are willing to live with the consequences. But there should be consequences when they are not followed.
 

88cupfan

Well-Known Member
Jan 5, 2009
60
0
Just like the law that was made to take away your gun was wrong, the law to make a business owner kick out smokers is wrong also. I agree that we should live by the law, but that doesnt make it right. So, you agree that the law is wrong but you want to stomp your feet just to get your way because its convienient for you?
 

88cupfan

Well-Known Member
Jan 5, 2009
60
0
Integrity is displayed in a person who does what is right even when they don't feel like it. You don't feel like hitting balls around smoker but it isn't right for you to take the business owners right to allow it away from him.
 

fisher

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2008
1,263
0
To the original post.....

If it was 50* out what the he double hockey sticks were you doing hitting at a driving range. Get out and chip and putt or play.

I hate smoke and most smokers for that matter......to them the world is thier ashtray. With that being said I think you would be completely unreasonable to ask for your money back. PS. I think they would laugh at you anyway if you did.
 
OP
David Hillman

David Hillman

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2008
836
0
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #27
The problem is that these laws exist to protect employees more than customers. Your proposal has been tried, but it results in waitresses, bartenders, etc being forced to breathe second-hand smoke.

On more abstract level, what powers does the government have within a place of a business? You are proposing, it seems, that each business in the country should be its own little fiefdom, outside the laws of the land. Should it be legal to kill or assault a person within the confines of a business? I think you'd say 'No'. How is that different from forcing them to breathe your lethal smoke, apart from the elapsed time 'til injury occurs? Your right to swing your fist ends where my face begins, and if your smoke hits my face...
 
OP
David Hillman

David Hillman

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2008
836
0
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #28
To the original post.....

If it was 50* out what the he double hockey sticks were you doing hitting at a driving range. Get out and chip and putt or play.

Excellent point; two reasons, first, I was on lunch and didn't have time for anything more. Second, the snow cover was only just starting to melt that day, and no courses were open. Still, I can't find an open course, and believe me I'm trying, since I just realized that Monday is a holiday here. It's supposed to be 38*, but if I can find a course open, I'm playing even though it's going to mean mudding-up my brand new spikes.
 

JEFF4i

She lives!
Supporting Member
Jul 3, 2006
13,545
95
While you all present some good points, I can only question your ability to present them, when you clearly have shown your inability to read.

You see, on the forum rules, it says no politics. :p
 

wirehair

Life's too short to drink cheap wine.
Apr 29, 2005
2,489
3
Based on my experiences, smokers are very reasonable and accommodating. If they are asked to not, they'll say sure no problem, put out their cigars and move on with their lives.

I've met many more non-smokers who are more than willing to wave their arms, and fuss about noxious fumes.
 

🔥 Latest posts

Top