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another golf rule to ponder

N.V.M.

now...a cartoon
Sep 27, 2008
1,972
2
Rule 20-1/15-"Any accidental movement of the ball marker which occurs before or after the specific act of marking, including as a result of dropping the ball, regardless of the height from which it was dropped ... results in the player incurring a one stroke penalty"

this rule just cost Poulter(of whom i'm not a fan) $400K, and a trophy. as he was replacing his ball(on the green) in front of his ball marker, he accidentally dropped his ball from a few inches away. the ball landed on his marker and it flipped like a tiddly wink, and he knew right away he was done.
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
Absolutely ridiculous. I do suggest he get a marker he can actually stink into the green a bit, though. I understand that after the marker has moved there is no way to determine the, "exact position" of the ball.

But if the ball itself is jostled then returns to its original position, that isn't even a penalty. What you're describing does not protect anything; it only penalizes a player for being a little clumsy at a very inopportune time.
 

limpalong

Mental Ward Escapee
Supporting Member
Oct 18, 2006
13,821
13,653
I forgot!
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Three or four years ago during our club member's tourney, I marked my ball with one of the flat ball markers that is integral with a divot tool. I'd always been in the habit of tapping that ball marker down with my putter. That morning it was a little damp and the ball marker stuck to the bottom of my putter. I noticed it right away and replaced the marker as close to where I could identify it had been.
After the hole was completed, I told the person keeping my score that I had incurred a penalty but was unsure whether it was one or two strokes. The other 3 members of the foursome told me to not worry about it. "Shoot! It was accidental and you put it right back." I told the scorer to put an asterisk beside that hole and I would ask the club pro before signing the scorecard. Again, all of the other 3 thought I was being 'over the top' by even thinking of assessing myself the penalty.
Once I checked with the pro, I made the change for the penalty and then signed the card. Would have been easy to have agreed with the other 3 and overlooked it. This is an amazing game where you have to sleep at night, knowing you have played with as much integrity as possible.
During a "fun" round on a Saturday, I doubt any of the regulars in our group would assess the penalty for inadvertantly moving the marker with the ball or any other object. In the tourney, it would simply not have been fair for any of the other participants for me not to take the penalty.
Ridiculous rule... but it is a rule!
 

TheTrueReview

"Playing it straight"
Supporting Member
Jan 8, 2009
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I'm still scratching my head over this one. I can see arguments for and against the rule but I'm sure there's a better way.
 

BigJim13

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Moderator
Aug 13, 2006
11,840
3,154
Three or four years ago during our club member's tourney, I marked my ball with one of the flat ball markers that is integral with a divot tool. I'd always been in the habit of tapping that ball marker down with my putter. That morning it was a little damp and the ball marker stuck to the bottom of my putter. I noticed it right away and replaced the marker as close to where I could identify it had been.
After the hole was completed, I told the person keeping my score that I had incurred a penalty but was unsure whether it was one or two strokes. The other 3 members of the foursome told me to not worry about it. "Shoot! It was accidental and you put it right back." I told the scorer to put an asterisk beside that hole and I would ask the club pro before signing the scorecard. Again, all of the other 3 thought I was being 'over the top' by even thinking of assessing myself the penalty.
Once I checked with the pro, I made the change for the penalty and then signed the card. Would have been easy to have agreed with the other 3 and overlooked it. This is an amazing game where you have to sleep at night, knowing you have played with as much integrity as possible.
During a "fun" round on a Saturday, I doubt any of the regulars in our group would assess the penalty for inadvertantly moving the marker with the ball or any other object. In the tourney, it would simply not have been fair for any of the other participants for me not to take the penalty.
Ridiculous rule... but it is a rule!

Good story and this just goes to show that us amateurs play with 2 sets of rules-myself included. I very rarely take stroke and distance when I hit OB. If i'm in doubt I hit a second ball with penalty. If I didn't think it was out only to learn once I get to where I think my ball should be, I drop with penalty. For the sake of speed of play is the main reason I do this. If it was a tourney there is no doubt I would do stroke and distance, but for fun rounds we all play the same way.
 

Bignose

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2006
426
2
I am sure that somewhere in the annals of the game, someone mastered the art of "dropping" the ball on the marker and moving the marker closer to the hole.

It does seem like one of these rules that should again be covered under "hit the ball from where it came to rest until it is in the hole" and end of story. I mean, you don't have to mark the ball position. If there are imperfections on the green, and you use something to measure (like the length of your putter head), you can determine the ball's exact position and replace when it is your turn. The real consideration is determining the same spot. Seems to me that if you are standing over your marker, and you accidentally nudge the marker (either with a dropped ball, putter toe, or shoe, or anything else) that your brain knows where that marker was and if you immediately put it back, that that should be fine. Someone would use that opportunity to get a ball an inch closer to the hole, though, we all know that there are people who use any means necessary to gain even minuscule advantages or to flat out cheat.

Maybe my lament really is that it is unfortunate that such a rule needs to be in place because we actually can't trust everyone to replace as best they can and there are people would use the ambiguity to cheat. Really, that's what a very large number of the rules and decisions address -- there was some jackass out there that was using the ambiguity to move their ball 2 inches, not by accident but on purpose, and so a rule had to be made about it. Its why we can't have a real divot hole rule, or a rule that allows the wind to move the ball after you've addressed it, because we know jackasses would abuse those ambiguities, even if 99.99% of people would still be fair about it.
 

papperlapub

Swedish Golfer
Jul 31, 2006
182
1
Rule 20-1/15-
this rule just cost Poulter(of whom i'm not a fan) $400K, and a trophy.

I am very happy that Karlsson made his put, so either with or without the penalty Poulter would have lost.

However, Poulter would of Course have had a different mind set when putting without the penalty in his head and he might have done the put. This was still a difficult put to make for him, so I would not go as far as to say that the penalty allone cost him 400K and the trophy....

I was hoping that Karlson would also go to his ball marker and also drop his ball on it - too even it out....What a moment that would have been. :)
 

IrishGolfer

Fac ut gaudeam
Supporting Member
Sep 1, 2004
6,542
4,976
Such a freak accident. Poulter says it has never happened to him or anyone he has ever played with before. Still I guess that the rules abide. That's a few times recently in play-offs that freak rule infringements have happened.

Too bad for Poulter, but he has had a great run as of late, so I'm sure he wont be too disappointed.

Oh, and a hearty congratulations to Herr Kaymer. Stunning form in 2010 saw him deservedly win the Race to Dubai. And him only 25? Watch out!
 

IrishGolfer

Fac ut gaudeam
Supporting Member
Sep 1, 2004
6,542
4,976
Such a freak accident. Poulter says it has never happened to him or anyone he has ever played with before. Still I guess that the rules abide. That's a few times recently in play-offs that freak rule infringements have happened.

Too bad for Poulter, but he has had a great run as of late, so I'm sure he wont be too disappointed.

Oh, and a hearty congratulations to Herr Kaymer. Stunning form in 2010 saw him deservedly win the Race to Dubai. And him only 25? Watch out!
 

Fourputt

Littleton, Colorado
Sep 5, 2006
973
0
Three or four years ago during our club member's tourney, I marked my ball with one of the flat ball markers that is integral with a divot tool. I'd always been in the habit of tapping that ball marker down with my putter. That morning it was a little damp and the ball marker stuck to the bottom of my putter. I noticed it right away and replaced the marker as close to where I could identify it had been.
After the hole was completed, I told the person keeping my score that I had incurred a penalty but was unsure whether it was one or two strokes. The other 3 members of the foursome told me to not worry about it. "Shoot! It was accidental and you put it right back." I told the scorer to put an asterisk beside that hole and I would ask the club pro before signing the scorecard. Again, all of the other 3 thought I was being 'over the top' by even thinking of assessing myself the penalty.
Once I checked with the pro, I made the change for the penalty and then signed the card. Would have been easy to have agreed with the other 3 and overlooked it. This is an amazing game where you have to sleep at night, knowing you have played with as much integrity as possible.
During a "fun" round on a Saturday, I doubt any of the regulars in our group would assess the penalty for inadvertantly moving the marker with the ball or any other object. In the tourney, it would simply not have been fair for any of the other participants for me not to take the penalty.
Ridiculous rule... but it is a rule!

Hate to say it Limp, but you did not incur a penalty for that. Your pro was wrong. All you needed to do was replace the marker as closely as possible to where it was and play from there.... no penalty - Dec. 20-1/6.

20-1/6 Ball-Marker Moved Accidentally by Player in Process of Marking Position of Ball

Q. A player marked the position of his ball with a coin, lifted the ball and pressed down the coin with the sole of his putter. He walked to the edge of the green and then noticed that the coin had stuck to the sole of the putter. What is the ruling?

A. In this case, the movement of the ball-marker was directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of the ball.

Accordingly, no penalty is incurred and the ball or the ball-marker must be replaced. If the spot where the ball or ball-marker lay is not known, it must be placed as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole (Rule 20-3c).
 

slickpitt

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2006
2,706
3
Three or four years ago during our club member's tourney, I marked my ball with one of the flat ball markers that is integral with a divot tool. I'd always been in the habit of tapping that ball marker down with my putter. That morning it was a little damp and the ball marker stuck to the bottom of my putter. I noticed it right away and replaced the marker as close to where I could identify it had been.
After the hole was completed, I told the person keeping my score that I had incurred a penalty but was unsure whether it was one or two strokes. The other 3 members of the foursome told me to not worry about it. "Shoot! It was accidental and you put it right back." I told the scorer to put an asterisk beside that hole and I would ask the club pro before signing the scorecard. Again, all of the other 3 thought I was being 'over the top' by even thinking of assessing myself the penalty.
Once I checked with the pro, I made the change for the penalty and then signed the card. Would have been easy to have agreed with the other 3 and overlooked it. This is an amazing game where you have to sleep at night, knowing you have played with as much integrity as possible.
During a "fun" round on a Saturday, I doubt any of the regulars in our group would assess the penalty for inadvertantly moving the marker with the ball or any other object. In the tourney, it would simply not have been fair for any of the other participants for me not to take the penalty.
Ridiculous rule... but it is a rule!

Yep I agree with you. Just farting around on the golf course I'm not gonna sweat that. But in competition, you bet your ass it's a penalty.
 

limpalong

Mental Ward Escapee
Supporting Member
Oct 18, 2006
13,821
13,653
I forgot!
Country
United States United States
Hate to say it Limp, but you did not incur a penalty for that. Your pro was wrong. All you needed to do was replace the marker as closely as possible to where it was and play from there.... no penalty - Dec. 20-1/6.

Well... our pro owes me now!!!! He was certain, and quoted the rule under which Poulter was penalized, that if you inadvertandly moved the marker you incurred a penalty. Shows that even the guy who gets paid to know... may not know it all!! What a confusing game!
Like I said, in our regular Saturday/Sunday game, I would have just replaced the marker as closely as possible to where it had been. In a tourney, however, I did not want to take anything for granted. Thanks for the reference!!!!!
 

Fourputt

Littleton, Colorado
Sep 5, 2006
973
0
Well... our pro owes me now!!!! He was certain, and quoted the rule under which Poulter was penalized, that if you inadvertandly moved the marker you incurred a penalty. Shows that even the guy who gets paid to know... may not know it all!! What a confusing game!
Like I said, in our regular Saturday/Sunday game, I would have just replaced the marker as closely as possible to where it had been. In a tourney, however, I did not want to take anything for granted. Thanks for the reference!!!!!

It is a myth that being a pro means that you know the rules forward and backwards. Clearly that isn't the case as is demonstrated so often in the mistakes made by PGA Tour pros. Even the best rules officials make mistakes.

One of the first things I was told after I started working as a rules official for the Colorado Golf Association is that every official either has made or will in the future make a bad ruling. It is inevitable. All you can do is try your best and ask for help if you aren't sure.
 

fisher

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2008
1,263
0
I'm glad Poulter took the penalty like a man. If his last name had been Johnson he likely would have realized his mistake and played on hoping nobody noticed and then when his mistake is discovered and the penalty assessed make some lame excuse for his infraction like saying he didn't know he was on the greene.
 

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