Bravo's Indictment of US and Euro pros

[Bravo]

B,

This is where you are wrong. IN THE US, NFL, NBA and MLB dominate. But on a world scale, soccer, cricket and rugby are much, much larger than all of those combined. All of which are determinant on a team aspect. None of them reward individuality, you must combine to excel in each respective game.
R35

OK - now I am really baffled. My discussion is not about comparing team sports in the US vs other countries in the world. Soccer, cricket and rugby (last time I checked) were team sports, just like football, basketball and baseball.

So what I am missing?

We were discussing individualism vs. team sports and the sports you have mentioned are all team sports. You contend that American sports are dominated by an individualistic mentality when the vast majority of American sports are team sports.

How is a baseball team going to be successful if they make a meaningful number of errors? Think of what happens between the catcher signalling the pitcher and the hitter hits a ball to short and the throws to first.

Or better yet - how about a double play? This is an example of individualism? No it is a superb example of split second execution by three teammates working in close concert with each other. Don't be confused by the fact that they are all multimillionaires. This is irrelevant to the discussion. There are plenty of English football players who are multimillionaires over there who are held on the same pedestal as American pros. This makes the team professional environment identical. I've seen plenty of Premiership games on TV here to see it in the same light as American team sports...

In American football 22 players are on the field simultaneously. Any player who is unable to perform well in a team environment doesnt make it. Soccer, rugby all the same.

These are all examples of team sports and while there are individuals who are certainly stars in all of them (all over the world) to succeed they must all play well as teammates. When Terrell Owens made as ass of himself, his own teammates finally told the owner - "Get this jerk off our team" This is a bunch of multimillionaires telling the GM to get the guy off the team because he was not a team player.

So I stil don't get your point. Team sports dominate America...not individual...

 

[Rockford35]

So I stil don't get your point. Team sports dominate America...not individual...

"Individuals" dominate American/Western team sports - that's my point.

Overseas, there's more commoradity than there is in western team sports.

I've played hockey for more than 20 years, baseball for just about as long, basketball and golf for 24. I've NEVER met someone on any of my teams that is more impressed with an assist over a goal in any of that time.

I've been on teams where parents complain that their star kid isn't getting enough game time because the lesser skilled players are allowed just as much time on the ice.

As much as you want to think that TEAM sports are about 12 guys out there as one, that's complete bullshit.

The difference is, it's less bullshit over there than it is on this side of the pond.

R35

 

[VtDivot]

I've NEVER met someone on any of my teams that is more impressed with an assist over a goal in any of that time.

R35

Wayne Gretzky is idolized for this very reason? I don't understand. Is he the exception? Why do Canadian hockey fans love the Great One? His assisst totals far outnumber his goals.

 

[LyleG]

Wayne Gretzky is idolized for this very reason? I don't understand. Is he the exception? Why do Canadian hockey fans love the Great One? His assisst totals far outnumber his goals.

Wayne was the ultimate team player, the only thing that mattered to him was winning. IMO, hockey is the sport with the least individual bullcrap of any played in North America. It just simply isnt tollerated in the dressing room. Guys like this are a cancer and dont last long.

As for the Ryder cup, I see a US team full of guys wanting to be the hero. The Euro's seem just as content with being average, as long as they still get the win. Again using DeMarco as an example, fist pumping when you have already lost the overall event shows a guy who thinks he is the man, not a guy who is part of a team. If I won my match 10 and 8, it would mean nothing to me if we lost. I sure as hell wouldnt be fist pumping. I would be bummed as hell.

 

[Bravo]

Wayne Gretzky is idolized for this very reason? I don't understand. Is he the exception? Why do Canadian hockey fans love the Great One? His assisst totals far outnumber his goals.

This was the exact example I thought of. Gretzky...probably one of the greatest professional athletes of all time...the Michael Jordan of hockey...is a North American professional athlete who was the epitome of the team game. YOu could call him Mr. Goal or Mr. Assist. Phenomenal passing ability.

And speaking of Mr. Jordan, he was named to the NBA All-Defense team repeatedly...maybe he didn't care enough about his team to come down to the other end of the court and try to stop the opponents from scoring. NO....the greatest basketball player of all time is the same as the greatest hockey player of all time. They BOTH epitomized team play...

(Rock this is a fun one...come on back at me baby!!!)

 

[VtDivot]

This was the exact example I thought of. Gretzky...probably one of the greatest professional athletes of all time...the Michael Jordan of hockey...is a North American professional athlete who was the epitome of the team game. YOu could call him Mr. Goal or Mr. Assist. Phenomenal passing ability.

And speaking of Mr. Jordan, he was named to the NBA All-Defense team repeatedly...maybe he didn't care enough about his team to come down to the other end of the court and try to stop the opponents from scoring. NO....the greatest basketball player of all time is the same as the greatest hockey player of all time. They BOTH epitomized team play...

(Rock this is a fun one...come on back at me baby!!!)

Might as well throw Mays in there too

 

[Rockford35]

(Rock this is a fun one...come on back at me baby!!!)

LOL....well, this wasn't my intention...

Wayne Gretzky, the most idolized and beloved Canadian hockey player, the best of all time....remember when he left the winning way of the Edmonton Oilers on August 9th, 1988 (I was at the cabin....and I cried....i'll admit it.

Here's a quote about that day that shows all of you jokers the true feelings of that deal, Gretzky's tears and all:

"August 9, 1988 is considered by many Canadians to be the lowest day in the country's history. On that date, the Oilers traded Wayne Gretzky, along with Mike Krushelnyski and Marty McSorley to the Los Angeles Kings for Jimmy Carson, Martin Gelinas, three first round picks and cash.

The major reason for the trade was the cash. Struggling financially, Oilers' owner Peter Pocklington jumped at the $15 million that Kings owner Bruce McNall showed him.

As Canada mourned, Los Angeles partied. Gretzky - and Hockey -had gone Hollywood. By the end of Gretzky's 7 1/2 season tenure with the Kings, the Great One had brought enough popularity to hockey in Southern California to blaze the trail for two more teams, the San Jose Sharks and the Anaheim Mighty Ducks."

I'm done. Oh, wait...

Micheal Jordan was one of the most conceited basketball players of all time. He had the Tiger Woods nose for winning and would step on the back of any teammate to get there. If you read any of the autobiography's of MJ, you'd find episode after episode of how Jordan ran that team in it's prime, that he and Reinsdorf were at odds over players all the time. MJ had many players traded, even if they produced, for players that would bow to MJ's tyranny and live with his ball hog mentality and play.

We've chatted about this before (even on GR), that professional sports, especially in North America, is no longer full of purists. That's why Collegiate sports (which are being killed as well, re: Reggie Bush, Maurice Clarett, ect). are just as popular, as the layperson can identify with the 90% of players on the field that after 4 years of playing will be selling them cars, defending them in court or building their decks - average joes. The professional ranks are FILLED with arrogance, self centered attitudes and ego centric team attitudes - "Where can I play to make the most cash?".

Name me 10 players in every league that have spent their entire careers on the same team - save lineman in the NFL, which are by far the least paid players in the league - you'd be hard pressed to do it. It's a dog eat dog world, as careers are short and winning is second to the almighty dollar. Sure, guys want a ring, but at the end of it all, having enough money to support your family and posse is much more warranted.

It wasn't always this way, which is sad.

R35

 

[VtDivot]

I'm still trying to figure out what Gretzky did wrong? Why the quote?

 

[Rockford35]

I'm still trying to figure out what Gretzky did wrong? Why the quote?

Why leave Edmonton, where they were winning, BTW, to seek out fame and fortune in L.A.? His wife lived there, but many players wives live elsewhere, so that can't be the reason. Why would he leave a winning tradition, all he knew of the hockey realm, his friends, the city and a chance of winning yet another cup for a fledgling team on the brink of bankruptcy? It wasn't until a money launderer and some movie stars bought the team in L.A. did Gretzky even comtemplate going. It was only after a huge salary increase, as well as wads of cash to make up for his absence (of which Edmonton signed a few key players and won the cup in 89-90) that he decided to go.

I remember that weekend well. The only time in my life that I heard Canadians speak ill of The Great One.

"He left for the money."

"His new wife has poisoned him."

"He doesn't care about winning anymore. Nobody does. The league is going to pot. All guys see now is zeros on their paycheques. The odd ring helps, but they don't care."

It was a sad day my friend. Sad.

He's stil a hero for what he did in Edmonton, but you NEVER hear of Canadians talking about his time in L.A. (save, his game that he set the goal scoring record - against EDM), his time in St. Louis (another salary run) and his time in NY (where he new he could get money to make one last cup run, (of which he never won in NY.)

Sugar coat it all you want, after 1988, Wayne went south - literally and figuratively.

R35

 

[VtDivot]

Last I read he was traded from EDM to LA.

I think you are forgetting that he had some fantastic seasons in LA as well, not 200 pts like in EDM, but his cast wasn't quite as good either(Kurri, Messier, Ansersen etc). He single handedly turned LA into a contender and also grew the game tremendously in the USA. The fans and media needed him to be traded to grow the game.

 

[sidvicious]

Didn't one of the announcers suggest we field a team from the Nationwide Tour? Sounds good to me.

Maybe even drop down to the Hooters Tour: talented and still hungry golfers, beer, wings, and Hooters girls could do wonders for team spirit.

i thought of this as well, except that my choice was the seniors.

the regular tour breeds the isolation that results in poor team play.

the irony is that most of us hackers on this site are in perfect position to judge this.

the BIG tours should require two team tourneys per year.

 

[Rockford35]

Last I read he was traded from EDM to LA.

The extras that resulted from the trade weren't clear when Gretzky requested to be traded to L.A.

The fact that L.A. became a contender was only seen after gobs and gobs of money, buying a big market star and bringing in a supporting cast (Robitaille, Hrudey, ect.). The game grew as a result of Wayne seeking out what he couldn't get in EDM - stardom. He was a hero in Canada, and still is.

But many of us remember what he ultimately did to the game. He had a lifetime contract with EDM, and could have spent his entire career there winning cups. That sounds like a pretty damn good deal to me.

Do you really think Brian McCabe is worth 5 million a season, even with a salary cap?

Wayne's a hero, and will probably appear on our currency when he passes away. The fact still remains that his jumping ship out of EDM impacted the league for the good (in some aspects) and the bad (from some others). He's one of the best hockey ambassadors in the world.

But that still doesn't change the fact, of which the original question was asked, that he sought out fame and fortune over keeping the team together.

R35

 

[Adam Pettman]

Well the Nationwide Tour is better than European Tour after all....

WRONG!!!!!

 

[VtDivot]

But that still doesn't change the fact, of which the original question was asked, that he sought out fame and fortune over keeping the team together.

R35

He's only human, he was looking out for himself and his family. His team and the city of Edmonton come a distant second. The 9 years he spent in EDM were a delight to the city and fans as well as the team.

I think Wayne paid his dues.

 

[Rockford35]

He's only human, he was looking out for himself and his family. His team and the city of Edmonton come a distant second. The 9 years he spent in EDM were a delight to the city and fans as well as the team.

I think Wayne paid his dues.

If he felt he paid his dues and that allowed him to turn his back on the country by bettering his wife's acting career instead of resurrecting hockey in a failing CANADIAN city was the next move, then I agree. Would living in Edmonton crush his wife's ego/career (what little career she had) and would his kids end up idiots? I highly doubt it.

His now employer was a failed Canadian hockey team, if you remember. Quebec had a failing team as well.

He had ample opportunity to make winners out of any of those.

Money talks. It's as simple as that.

If you wanna get this back to golf and motivation, just have a look at the average purse for a PGA event and one for a EPGA event. It boggles the mind. Save for a few in UAE, nothing touches the PGA Tour.

Fat and happy, those boys are....no need to get riled up when you've got 100million in the bank...

R35