Buying a new vehicle

[David Hillman]

Actually, I am not sure the CPI would be an accurate judge for the facts that I stated in all honesty. My comments were in regards to what happened in the 1980's, and more specifically your gauge by the CPI is not in relation to the Big 3, but new cars in general. Are you not aware of what transpired in the 80's when the Tariffs were placed. So, does your research include foreign cars, Tariffs, and such? Your diagram is pretty vague if you want my honest opinion. I actually do not even see how it relates to what I mentioned.

If the price didn't go up, and hasn't gone down much either, they didn't 'jack up their rates' as you put it. That was the basis for your blaming the Big 3, as I read your post. If that didn't happen, then how can you blame them?

That said, even if the prices DID jump, you still have a problem in your argument. The time frame you are referring to was arguably the most dynamic ever for carmakers. Compare a late-seventies domestic car with one from the early fifties or even late forties, and not much had changed. On the other hand, compare a 1980 with a 1995. The latter probably has several computers which would've cost more than the entire car did in 1980, a bomb installed in the steering wheel as required by the Federal government, all manner of emissions controls, and an energy absorbing unibody. None of that was free. Where do you expect the money for that R&D to come from?

Can someone out there who has been a GM/Ford shareholder for a couple decades report on their dividends? Did they take a huge jump up in the eighties?

 

[Pa Jayhawk]

How does the market trend over the last 30 years relate to how they raised they prices in the 1980's. I was there when it happened. Kinda like saying that the Exxon raises their gas prices to $2.25 a gallon when the current trend is $1.85. So how does that compare in relation to the fact that gas was $4 just a few months ago. Did they actually lower their rates?

Again, they point is simple, they raised their prices to meet that of the existing prices of the foreign car manufacturers when the Tariff was imposed.

... and for all intensive purposes that remains unchanged IMO. So now it comes down to Nuts and Bolts. Does their product compare??? If most of the consumers could answer yes to that question then they would not be faced with they debacle they are now being faced with.

Why are the foreign car makers assembling their cars in the US not being affected by the UAW.

Again, this is all about poor business decisions, and I do remember the Big 3 jacking their rates to the match the foreign car makers prices. It was the turning point on why I stopped buying Big 3. They think life revolves around them, I feel it revolves around the consumer. If they think they are still right, then great, but don't ask me for handouts.

A question. Why is Honda, Toyota, Hyudai, Isuzu, etc. not entitled to the same handouts when they are mass producing their vehicles in the US and creating the same jobs?

The trend still exists today, they are charging the same for vehicles that the public still consider inferior. If they are equal, then great, blame the UAW but don't ask the American public to bail them out. The jobs aren't going away but simply transferring to where they are necessary.

 

[David Hillman]

With all due respect, I believe you are talking a lot more about feeling than fact. For example, see Ezra's post a page or two back... domestic cars ARE a lot cheaper than foreign ones, which is why his GF bought her Pontiac. In the case of trucks, a Toyota will run you about $10K more than a Big 3 half-ton. You can buy a Cadillac for similar amounts less than a comparable Lexus or Acura.

And, as far the eighties are concerned, I don't know how you can compare domestic and Japanese prices. For most of that decade, the Japanese makes didn't even have vehicles in most segments. The biggest Japanese car you could buy was probably a Maxima, and that was a small sedan back then. You seem to expect Ford to sell a Crown Vic cheaper than a Civic coupe, and I don't know why.

 

[Pa Jayhawk]

And, as far the eighties are concerned, I don't know how you can compare domestic and Japanese prices. For most of that decade, the Japanese makes didn't even have vehicles in most segments. The biggest Japanese car you could buy was probably a Maxima, and that was a small sedan back then. You seem to expect Ford to sell a Crown Vic cheaper than a Civic coupe, and I don't know why.

Just doing a brief google search I grab the top 5 I saw that related in a list of about 12k hits. I really don't think I am misinterpreting something that has been analyzed and discussed by many of the top economists over the last 25 years. I think it was the sole foundation and reasoning in regards to the Quotas and Tariffs, and the reason it backfired is they in turn bumped their prices for short term profit. Not sure the nature of these top five articles, but you can get unlimited information that points to the same conclusion. Sure the concept was to retool the US industry, but that was not the final means of what took place.

... and again, not to say I do not agree with your premise about the UAW salaries, I just think investigating how and why that came about points back to poor business decision and not being held at gunpoint, otherwise I think the Japanese automakers would have suffer similar if not more of the same fate with the test of time. Specifically since as a result of what happened in the 80's, they now do a good portion of the work for Japanese cars in the US, which in turn would show you can get by without the UAW if you can live with unpopular opinion. Had the Japanese makers had their intial way, they would have produced the cars in Canada to bypass the Quotas and tariffs imposed on Japanese companies.

Lessons in Protection -- A special report.; Trade Curbs: Do They Do the Job? - New York Times

Trading losses - how import quotas have hurt more industries than they have helped - Editorial | National Review | Find Articles at BNET

Protectionism and Politics

How Can Big Business Make Money from Tariffs?: Economics Lesson

Protecting the Big Three

edit 1 - also, my intent was not to keep digging this up and harping on the issue, I just finally had a bit of time since your post to do a little research to find a bit of support for why I made my comments. There may even be two sides to that coin, this is just the one I believe the most. Whether it is right or wrong may still be up in the air, but there is a ton of information that supports the idea behind the theory I mentioned.

 

[dave.]

US cars are rubbish

 

[Clugnut]

US cars are rubbish

Says the guy from Britian! I bet our food sucks, too!:biglol:

 

[Rockford35]

With all due respect, I believe you are talking a lot more about feeling than fact. For example, see Ezra's post a page or two back... domestic cars ARE a lot cheaper than foreign ones, which is why his GF bought her Pontiac. In the case of trucks, a Toyota will run you about $10K more than a Big 3 half-ton. You can buy a Cadillac for similar amounts less than a comparable Lexus or Acura.

And, as far the eighties are concerned, I don't know how you can compare domestic and Japanese prices. For most of that decade, the Japanese makes didn't even have vehicles in most segments. The biggest Japanese car you could buy was probably a Maxima, and that was a small sedan back then. You seem to expect Ford to sell a Crown Vic cheaper than a Civic coupe, and I don't know why.

Not to get into the middle of this, but when I bought my Accord, the manager told me that if it weren't for import fees protecting the failing domestic market (this was 7 years ago), they could sell Civics for less that 10K apeice.

And they sell every single one of them on the lot at 6.9% financing and have a hundred guys waiting for the next years alottment because they can't keep them in stock.

In Canada, there's a limited number of imported cars allowed in the country per year to protect the local economy - which is good and bad, when you think about it.

R35

 

[David Hillman]

Not to get into the middle of this, but when I bought my Accord, the manager told me that if it weren't for import fees protecting the failing domestic market (this was 7 years ago), they could sell Civics for less that 10K apeice.

Despite the alignment of the Canadian and U.S. dollars, there's a big difference in car prices across the border, especially when it comes to luxury models. The average sticker prices for new cars and light trucks is about $8,000, or 26 percent, less in the U.S. than in Canada, according to a recent Consumer Reports analysis. The difference on some luxury models runs to tens of thousands of dollars. With such gaps, it's hardly surprising that the number of new and used cars Canadians imported from the U.S. in 2007 has more than doubled in recent years, to 189,738 vehicles.

I have to write something here, or the software won't let me post, but I think the quote speaks for itself.

 

[David Hillman]

edit 1 - also, my intent was not to keep digging this up and harping on the issue, I just finally had a bit of time since your post to do a little research to find a bit of support for why I made my comments. There may even be two sides to that coin, this is just the one I believe the most. Whether it is right or wrong may still be up in the air, but there is a ton of information that supports the idea behind the theory I mentioned.

I have no problem with a little debate; if it works right we will both learn some things. That said, I'm not finding support for your claim that US automakers jacked up their prices in response to import tariffs in the sources you posted. In at least one, it says exactly the opposite...

From 1981 to 1985, the U.S. automobile industry was shielded from Japanese competition by "voluntary import restraints." During that time the following changes took place:
Average price of a Japanese car sold in the United States rose by $2,500.
Average price of a United States car sold in the United States rose by $1,000.

Now keep in mind, during that 1981 to 1985 timeframe, annual US inflation was 10.35%, 6.16%, 3.22%, 4.30%, and 3.55% respectively. The source isn't clear on whether that $250/year increase in domestic prices is inflation-adjusted or not, but if not, real prices actually declined.

 

[DouginGA]

1993 toyota tacoma pickup with 335,000 miles. had to replace the battery and the ball joints. nuff said.