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"Connected" swings

charnockpro

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2005
763
0
Im glad you took a look at a pitcher - now if you look back at a golfer from the front on position you will see that the golfer's right arm also does NOT straighten until after the ball is gone also. - You just proved my point for me in their similarities - thank you.

my original point was that focusing on straightening your right arm i have found to be far more beneficial for more golfers than trying to keep ones right elbow connected to the body - the elbow bending will happen naturally as an effect of the extension.

Really, you need to get your syntax right, it seems on one hand you are saying I am right and then again trying to prove the right arm straightening, so please take me through your explanation of the downswing sequence, from the top of the swing downwards

your taking a huge assumption here - i dont know why you making this personal? all i am talking about is the concept of extension being more useful than the concept of a connected right elbow for a player. (which happens if extension is taking place)

It is commonplace in todays teaching that the golf swing goes wide to narrow and then wide AFTER the ball

in this thread i have stated what i have observed thru my experiences, and gone out of my way to give different explanations to help you understand a viewpoint - not agree with me mind you, just understand where i'm coming from. and this gets you to start assuming you now where im going to go with the discussion? and what i believe in, and whats in my book that you may or may not have read???


Mental things are NOT observable? you couldn't pick up on Tom Watson's mental collapse at that last putt on the 72nd green during the same Open? or how about most of Greg Normans career! this is an entirely different topic lets not start.

You can surmise what players are thinking, but they only truly know what their thought processes are and unless they verbalise them to the press and public all we can do is second guess.


i apologized in my last response that i was having problem multi quoting it and now as i look back at the weightlifting analogy a few sentences got cut out prior to what was posted -



again a pretty bold and inaccurate assumption here on your part. in fact, question my findings - please! but allow me the courtesy to respond in a manner that explains my viewpoint. agree or disagree with it, i dont shoot down, cause quite frankly, once i've explained my approach i dont care what you do with it cause i know full well that ive done my part to explain it. thats where the responsibility lies- in explaining and sharing ones findings. i feel that i've done that here and you decided to attack me - so be it. i have no desire to change the world, or push a system or teach one system like you elude to -
good luck and be well
Michael
I have no desire to change the world either but this is a place for active discussion, I was only verbalising my thoughts on the subject but it seems opinions and free speech are not allowed??

Listen you are a big guy and I am sure you have been challenged many times on your beliefs and will be again in the future, please take a look from the other side of the coin and know that people have other ideas and will challenge research from time to time, don't be offended, I am not here to prove myself, It was an active debate but you have seen fit to bow out.
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
Im glad you took a look at a pitcher - now if you look back at a golfer from the front on position you will see that the golfer's right arm also does NOT straighten until after the ball is gone also. - You just proved my point for me in their similarities - thank you.

my original point was that focusing on straightening your right arm i have found to be far more beneficial for more golfers than trying to keep ones right elbow connected to the body - the elbow bending will happen naturally as an effect of the extension.

Really, you need to get your syntax right, it seems on one hand you are saying I am right and then again trying to prove the right arm straightening, so please take me through your explanation of the downswing sequence, from the top of the swing downwards

Charnockpro,

You seem like a nice enough chap that enjoys a good discussion and if I have been unable to get my point across syntax errors, please allow me to reset the discussion and try it again.

I initially stated that I didn't understand the fascination given to the right elbow on the downswing and that i have found it more harmful then helpful of a swing thought.

talking about the basic traditional looking golf swing as we all know it to be, the right arm is folded at the top of the backswing and finds a fully extended point in the follow through - for this discussion lets call the follow through the point where both arms are fully straight about 9-15" past the initial impact point.

what I contend is that focusing the golfer onto the point of extension is more useful than worrying about the elbow bend on the downswing.

I also contend that there are 2 distinct things happening:
1-your cause point is what you are intending to do, and the effect of this is
2-what it actually looks like when you do it.

these are two entirely different looking actions. in a golf swing when one tries to straighted their arms (intention), the resulting force against the arms by the weighted clubhead creates a counterforce which causes hip turn and late hit angle to occur (actuality).

I believe that its nice to study the effects of things only if it is to find the cause point. the cause point of the downswing for me is the extension. If i extend will i have late hit? Yes. But if I attempt to delay the angle/keep my right elbow tight etc will i necessarily get extension? No.

This is really all i'm trying to get across - no more no less.

If i'm out of bounds here somewhere or am missing something let me know -
Best
Michael
 

charnockpro

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2005
763
0
I would then contend that if you are talking about the extension past the ball then yes there is right arm straightening which is caused by what goes before, i I would say that thinking about extending down the line would cause the average guy to lose angles very quickly on the way down, extension is something to me you cannot build in, it is a by product of a correct chain of events which again is not sustaining a late hit angle either, if you have correct angles coming into impact extension will happen from this and not because of any other movement.
YouTube - SERGIO GARCIA SLOW MOTION 6TH TURNBERRY OPEN 2009 2 Great example here as he has lag well into the downswing but does extend way through the ball by virtue of what has been created before
YouTube - CAMILO VILLEGAS SLOW MOTION 16TH HOLE MASTERS 2009

Golf Instruction: Widen Your V-Gap For Power, By Jim McLean: Golf Digest Magazine GOOD ARTICLE HERE
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
I would then contend that if you are talking about the extension past the ball then yes there is right arm straightening which is caused by what goes before,

this is exactly where we differ. i'm saying that extension causes late hit, your saying late hit causes extension.

I would say that thinking about extending down the line would cause the average guy to lose angles very quickly on the way down,

i want to be clear here i am not saying extend down the line. rather extend out from the body towards the ball - which if you were to draw a straight line from the clubhead at the top of the backswing it would be (3 dimensionally) down out and slightly forward.

if you were to extend and extend down the line, you would invariably come over the top hitting the back of the ball, rather the inside quadrant with a closing face (which is what i am a proponent for)

now im not saying that you cant play without extension being your key downswing thought. for example one can definitely and intentionally hold onto the downswing angle. now if you choose to play like that ala mark mccumber, hold the angle, rake the clubface down the target line, hold the face open and for gods sake dont ever release the toe of the club - it would work.

personally i have played like that and in my opinion it has limited merit i prefer not to play that way. but i will say it has worked well for many a touring pro.

extension is something to me you cannot build in, it is a by product of a correct chain of events which again is not sustaining a late hit angle either, if you have correct angles coming into impact extension will happen from this and not because of any other movement.
again we disagree here. your saying the angles create the extension, and im saying the extension creates the late hit.

one drill i use to demonstrate to students what i am talking about here is to take a whippy bicycle flag and make some golf swings doing both actions and film it! look at the film and see which action creates more late hit angles - trying to extend the flagstick and trying to hold onto the angle.

Best
Michael
 

charnockpro

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2005
763
0
I can see on this we are never going to see eye to eye, what the hell a whippy bicycle flag has to do with a golf swing is beyond me, even as a drill!, did you read the article? see some merit? full extension does not happen until you are past the golf ball, I am not advocating holding on to the angle as this as I said is not possible due to the speed of the clubhead approaching impact.

I dont like the word late hit, I think lag describes it better, and if you see the angles in the McClean article you will see the merits of it, you are loading your replies with no foundation on what I have said previous, I know for a fact Leadbetter tried this way of teaching with Faldo before they split and also Els, and they lost their way altogether, I just dont see what you are saying as a natural chain of events, ok so you ar saying about not releasing down the line you are still advocating a right arm extension on the way down, what happens to the wrist angle in the right wrist? do you then conciously hold that?.
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
I can see on this we are never going to see eye to eye, what the hell a whippy bicycle flag has to do with a golf swing is beyond me, even as a drill!,
well you didnt even try the drill i suggested! of course we wont see eye to eye.

and you have to understand, what i am saying goes against everything youve ever read or seen in golf instruction before. i understand this, so you cant think with the traditional golf concepts.

what a bicycle flag has to do with the golf swing is the following. its no different than a golf club in that it has a shaft and a weight at the end just that the shaft is obviously much more whippy. the swing dynamics are the same though!!! if you were to do the drill you would see it on the video that the more you try to extend through impact you will get more resistance from the flag creating the - insert term here late hit/lag/angle whatever you want to call it - its right here.

did you read the article? see some merit?
the article is no different than anything else written about the golf swing in that it just talks about effects - create this effect - yet he doesnt give you the cause point to create the effect!!! it drives me crazy!

to get into that article isnt relevant to our discussion because i disagree with the premise of it.

i dont disagree that the golf swing is wider on the way back and narrower on the downswing, who would? my point is how is it BEST to create the narrowing. and i will prove that by focusing on the end point - both arms extended 9-15" past impact you will get all the desired narrowness on the downswing.

full extension does not happen until you are past the golf ball, I am not advocating holding on to the angle as this as I said is not possible due to the speed of the clubhead approaching impact.

yes full extension does not happen until you are past the ball. my point is simple - please look at what im writing. im saying that by focusing on extention you will get a great normal looking downswing. try it please, then see what happens.

I dont like the word late hit, I think lag describes it better,
fine im ok with whatever you would like to call it as long as we are describing that position where the right elbow is in front of the hip and the shaft is parallel to the ground with the left hip turning out of the way. (right handed golfer)

and if you see the angles in the McClean article you will see the merits of it, you are loading your replies with no foundation on what I have said previous, I know for a fact Leadbetter tried this way of teaching with Faldo before they split and also Els, and they lost their way altogether,

i dont know how to answer this

I just dont see what you are saying as a natural chain of events, ok so you ar saying about not releasing down the line you are still advocating a right arm extension on the way down, what happens to the wrist angle in the right wrist? do you then conciously hold that?.

Charnockpro - what are you not seeing? i'm willing to help you see what i'm saying (even if you disagree with it!)

the wrists/hands can move in the following directions -

palmar flexion - palm moving towards forearm
dorsal flexion - back of hand moving towards forearm
ulnar deviation - uncocking
radial deviation - cocking
neutral is in the middle of it all

the wrists at the top of the backswing will have the:
left hand - radial deviation
right hand - dorsal flexion

first moment of impact -
left hand - neutral
right hand - dorsal flexion

moment when both arms are straight post impact
left hand - ulnar deviation
right hand - dorsal flexion AND ulnar deviation

the above actions will have the shaft working into line with the left arm.

do you then conciously hold that?.
my golfswing is not a static, it has a start a change and an end - therefore i am always moving it thru alignments rather than trying to hold a position.

does that make sense?
respectfull
Michael
ps - should we take this discussion private? i dont know how many people are bored with this
 

charnockpro

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2005
763
0
I tried the drill as i am surrounded by flags, due to working at a golf club, and I didnt find any difference if I am honest, I am not saying your theory does not work, quite the opposite, I am all for innovation I ask questions to get answers and help me understand, I have read about the many concepts in the game of golf, I have a library of many golf books numbering past 200+ dvd's and vhs of golf instruction, I have been studying the game for 20 years so I consider myself to not be wet behind the ears

my description of the downswing regarding Leadbetter was that he worked with Faldo and Els and talked about maintaining angles on the way down whilst extending the right arm, an experiment he abandoned after 3 months.

Thank you for the lesson on the various movements of the hands and arms which is something I have already read in depth on GOLFWRX, and again for the average guy would just baffle them with science, I have read into palmar flexion and the differing opinions.

All I asked for was a breakdown of how you get from the top of your backswing down, do you not use the lower body at all? Is it more like Gary Edwins ideas with the right sided swing?

Please whatever you do, don't try and MAKE me understand, I do, all I am doing is asking relevant questions,
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
I tried the drill as i am surrounded by flags, due to working at a golf club, and I didnt find any difference if I am honest, I am not saying your theory does not work, quite the opposite, I am all for innovation I ask questions to get answers and help me understand, I have read about the many concepts in the game of golf, I have a library of many golf books numbering past 200+ dvd's and vhs of golf instruction, I have been studying the game for 20 years so I consider myself to not be wet behind the ears

my description of the downswing regarding Leadbetter was that he worked with Faldo and Els and talked about maintaining angles on the way down whilst extending the right arm, an experiment he abandoned after 3 months.

Thank you for the lesson on the various movements of the hands and arms which is something I have already read in depth on GOLFWRX, and again for the average guy would just baffle them with science, I have read into palmar flexion and the differing opinions.

All I asked for was a breakdown of how you get from the top of your backswing down, do you not use the lower body at all? Is it more like Gary Edwins ideas with the right sided swing?

Please whatever you do, don't try and MAKE me understand, I do, all I am doing is asking relevant questions,

You got it Charnockpro -

to answer how i get from the top of my backswing to impact is that when i make the decision to switch directions i am obviously still loading the club in the backswing. so i begin to unload my wrists against the shaft - in turn the shaft slows down in the backswing / stops / then starts down - its the whole negative acceleration stuff. because i have attempted to do this with my hands, the body's response is to turn the hips and bring my hands closer to impact where then the club catches up with the hands and strike at impact.

my key is that i have the hands unload against the shaft to cause the hip turn, not the hip turn causing the hands to unload (which is popular theory).

now this looks like a completely normal swing with the hips leading the downswing, but i assure you i am NOT trying to move the hips first. by unloading the hands first my hips respond by turning.

a drill for this is to put a blank shaft in your right hand (left hand behind your back) and from the top of the swing do one of two things - move the body first then bring the club down or 2 bring the club down first and have the body follow.

the second one will create a louder more powerful whoosh giving you feeling your behind the shot and not ahead of it.

the magic of this unloading the hands first and the body going 2nd action is that when you put a heavy club in your hand and try this it looks like a normal hip leading first swing.

Re: Gary Edwins, i never heard of him till you mentioned him and just watched 20 mins worth of videos on youtube by him. seems very interesting. at first glance seems like him and peter croker would have a good duel at each other.

i think he is onto something, i would like to know more about him if you have any info on him that would be much appreciated.

i cant give you a definitive answer if my action is like his without getting to know more about it, but i will say i am impressed (which is not often) with some of the things i have just heard. also looked like rodney pampling works with him and im a big fan of rodney's action.

also for any system to be complete it needs to handle the mind, the body and the golf swing areas. a failure in the mind or body will ruin the best intended golf swings before you even arrive to the course. this is one of the primary things that separates Atomic Golf from other golf instruction. not to digress, but we can fix your body and your mind who else can promise you that?

but as we are talking purely the 1/3 aspect golf swing - then he may have something quite workable here - i need to know more about it. i like the quiet body look vs a body first look (hope that makes sense)

very interesting stuff indeed thanks for the info:australia
 

halifax_golfer

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2006
472
0
I read all that; Pretty interesting forsure but I guess some might find it boring... :). I definitly dont wana argue with anyone about the golf swing, as I know I don't know enough about it. But I wanted to post up just saying I understand what Manavs is getting at.

I'm definitly no golf swing expert at all. I've read about 5-6 books in total, most recently I read Manavs' Atomic Golf. I started the summer not being able to break 110 (but still hit the odd long ball) my last few rounds have been 85,82,88,87 (still have lots of work to do). I don't know if was manavs way of explaining things in his book that helped me, or if it was just naturally going to happen. However I do know that using his methods for me produced a swing that can nail the golf ball pretty darn far however not always straight (for me anyways, and I'm a small guy).

I dont think about my left arm (I'm a lefty), I just know it reaches full extension shortly after I hit the ball. If it were to extend before I hit the ball, I think my swingpath would be too far from the outside (casting?).

I really forget what I was getting at here; Most my problems seem mental on the golf course aswell :)..... I don't like the word "late hit" either, lag seems to describe it best on the downswing before you've hit the ball, keeping the face kinda square and extending arms through and after you've hit the ball is how I seem to understand it. I just know at impact my right arm is straight (I'm a lefty), my left arm is SLIGHTlY bent, and after impact both arms straighten.

Sorry for interupting your conversation, and if anyone else is still reading this post; I am not one to know the science or proper words or anything like that behind the swing, just tryin to give a bit of input for somethin to do. :deadhorse:
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
I read all that; Pretty interesting forsure but I guess some might find it boring... :). I definitly dont wana argue with anyone about the golf swing, as I know I don't know enough about it. But I wanted to post up just saying I understand what Manavs is getting at.

I'm definitly no golf swing expert at all. I've read about 5-6 books in total, most recently I read Manavs' Atomic Golf. I started the summer not being able to break 110 (but still hit the odd long ball) my last few rounds have been 85,82,88,87 (still have lots of work to do). I don't know if was manavs way of explaining things in his book that helped me, or if it was just naturally going to happen. However I do know that using his methods for me produced a swing that can nail the golf ball pretty darn far however not always straight (for me anyways, and I'm a small guy).

I dont think about my left arm (I'm a lefty), I just know it reaches full extension shortly after I hit the ball. If it were to extend before I hit the ball, I think my swingpath would be too far from the outside (casting?).

I really forget what I was getting at here; Most my problems seem mental on the golf course aswell :)..... I don't like the word "late hit" either, lag seems to describe it best on the downswing before you've hit the ball, keeping the face kinda square and extending arms through and after you've hit the ball is how I seem to understand it. I just know at impact my right arm is straight (I'm a lefty), my left arm is SLIGHTlY bent, and after impact both arms straighten.

Sorry for interupting your conversation, and if anyone else is still reading this post; I am not one to know the science or proper words or anything like that behind the swing, just tryin to give a bit of input for somethin to do. :deadhorse:

halifax_golfer - you must be really bored LOL

PM me why your hitting it crooked
 
OP
Stanters

Stanters

Trinket King
Aug 13, 2006
1,096
1
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #26
I wasn't expecting this lol. Defo not bored - I think you two have given us all a lot of food for thought (when we can understand wtf you are on about) so carry on if you want to imo.

Little is learnt when two people agree sometimes but aposite opinions can really throw open some good stuff, so keep up the battle, just fight clean.

I've asked Charles Barkley to contribute to this thread at some point. He likes the bike flag thing idea.
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
I wasn't expecting this lol. Defo not bored - I think you two have given us all a lot of food for thought (when we can understand wtf you are on about) so carry on if you want to imo.

Little is learnt when two people agree sometimes but aposite opinions can really throw open some good stuff, so keep up the battle, just fight clean.

I've asked Charles Barkley to contribute to this thread at some point. He likes the bike flag thing idea.

I'm glad we've amused you lol

YouTube - The Flintstones

(mods-if inappropriate please remove)

Seriously - its been getting quiet in here, so its good to hear others have been watching and if any one has been able to take something from this and benefited then mission accomplished.
 
OP
Stanters

Stanters

Trinket King
Aug 13, 2006
1,096
1
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #28
Well, informed and amused really - I didn't mean to sound flippant but just wanted to add some brevity to a heavy thread.

It's a good read and thought provoking, you've both gone to considerable lengths to put your points across which is very generous. I'm sure some people have learnt a few things about the mechanics of the swing. So job done.
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
So Manavs, you're advocating starting the downswing with your hands? You were referencing a pitcher earlier- do you think pitchers also start to unwind with their hand first?

Hands don't cause the hips to move. You can move your hands and arms freely without your hips moving at all. That doesn't make physiological sense to me. Turning your hips moves your whole upper body by virtue of structural design, but the hands and arms, and even shoulders, can move quite a lot without moving the hips.

Is it possible your body is so tuned to the golf swing that you don't realize your hips KNOW to fire? Pulling down with your hands would not make your hips turn. You can sit in a chair and pull down with your hands. If you're in a swivel chair, your hips actually turn AWAY from the ball when you do that.
 

charnockpro

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2005
763
0
I am glad it has been entertaining for people to read and informative as well, I always like to put my point across without trying to impose a certain idealistic swing, I think you have to teach on sight and although there are some great instruction books out there with fantastic ideas and theories, I don't think that going to see your PGA pro can be beaten, these guys are well versed and can spot a problem, get to the root cause of it and hopefully bring you out the other side a better player.

Manavs, with regards to your left arm behind the back drill, although swing your arms down first and then your body following creates a louder noise, notice when the noise actually appears, pre impact, the normal sequence of movements for an efficient motion causes there to be a build up until impact and then increased speed impact and post, sequentially and timing wise your body would be playing catch up too much in my opinion.
 

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