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Fat burning question

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
Why is the "RDA" of protein so, so, so much lower than 1g per pound or more?

SilverUberXeno,

IMO and what i've researched - the kelloggs cereal company has been in bed with the government since the early 1900's, and they only make carbohydrates - they made the food pyramid! if the beef, chicken or fish industry was in power we may have a different set of pyramids. today high fructose corn syrup is killing everybody, yet the corn industry get billions in subsidies each year.

the first basic fault with the recommended daily allowance is that they dont take into consideration the differences in people. they say that a professional athlete, an elderly person and an 18 year old female all require the same amount nutrients. there is something wrong there - how can they all require the same amount of nutrients?

conspiracy theories aside.....

if people were to look an honest look at being healthy, they should look into the bodybuilding lifestyle. i dont mean being a competitive bodybuilder, but bodybuilders have a far superior healthy lifestyle and are knowledgable how to get into shape.

the proof is in the pudding - how is it that bodybuilding competition after competition you can see people of all ages and genders getting into shape? None of these people follow the food pyramid or rda guidelines.

they eat one of 2 typical diets -

1 - a diet high in protein, moderate carbs, and low fats
or
2 - a diet high in protein, moderate healthy fats and low carbs.

yet nutritionists, doctors, the govt all want you to have a high carb, low fat diet.

this is in a society that adult diabetes, obesity (esp childhood), and heart disease are growing.

the medical community as a whole. they are just busy passing out pills and opening up people for dollars. they are great at sick care, and terrible at health care.

i highly encourage you all watch this video of Milos Sarcev. his explanation is the best ive seen (and he doesnt get so worked up like i do:faintthud :thumbs up:)

<div><object width="480" height="325"><param name="movie" value="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x2st3r&related=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x2st3r&related=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="325" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></object><br /><b><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2st3r_milos-sarcevs-seminar-pt1_extreme">Milos Sarcev's Seminar pt1</a></b><br /><i>Uploaded by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/LEECH2004">LEECH2004</a>. - </i></div>
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
I don't put much into the RDA myself- was just curious as to where there's such a giant discrepancy. Based on the RDA, I consume several thousand percent of certain vitamins per day, and I don't eat ANYTHING high in fat. I eat a lot of tunafish, actually. Straight tunafish, or "tuna creations" which is basically flavored tunafish. That, on whole grain bread, constitutes 60% of my lunches. I ALWAYS look at the protein content of something before I buy it. I've stopped buying a lot of things because it became apparent it wasn't refueling my body at all.

Here's another question, Manav:

How much protein can the body properly absorb, or use, per hour? Like, at what point, in a sitting, does one hit the threshold potential for absorption? For example, it is much more productive to ingest 500mg of vitamin C 10 times a day rather than 5g once a day.
 

xamilo

Right Curving Driver....
Supporting Member
Dec 22, 2007
2,924
301
How much protein can the body properly absorb, or use, per hour? Like, at what point, in a sitting, does one hit the threshold potential for absorption? For example, it is much more productive to ingest 500mg of vitamin C 10 times a day rather than 5g once a day.

30g/h is the maximum amount your kidneys re able to filtrate on an average Glomerular Filtration Rate.

About the Vitamin issue, it is much more convenient to ingest it in fractionated doses, due t the half life of some molecules. However, hydrophilic molecules like Vitamin C would be filtrated, i.e. urinated when consumed in excess. You won't make a difference if you ingest 5g which is a ginormous amount or 2g for exmple, even if you fraction it in 1440 pieces and have one every minute of a day.
 

xamilo

Right Curving Driver....
Supporting Member
Dec 22, 2007
2,924
301
Why is the "RDA" of protein so, so, so much lower than 1g per pound or more?


Because the recommended dosage from the RDA or the FDA or whichever agency you want (RADN here in OZ), stays the minimum amount the p50 (percentile 50 which means in average the 50% of the population) of whichever molecule there is you need to have a "normal" life with no lack of the nutrient protein in this case.
 

74 thing

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2008
64
0
Michael,

Thanks for sharing the Milos information. If you have any others please feel free to share-very interesting and enlightening plus I don't think anyone can ever have too much information regarding diet...keep your mind open you may just learn something that works for you.
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
I don't put much into the RDA myself- was just curious as to where there's such a giant discrepancy. Based on the RDA, I consume several thousand percent of certain vitamins per day, and I don't eat ANYTHING high in fat. I eat a lot of tunafish, actually. Straight tunafish, or "tuna creations" which is basically flavored tunafish. That, on whole grain bread, constitutes 60% of my lunches. I ALWAYS look at the protein content of something before I buy it. I've stopped buying a lot of things because it became apparent it wasn't refueling my body at all.
im a big fan of tuna fish. very economical, and simple.
Here's another question, Manav:

How much protein can the body properly absorb, or use, per hour? Like, at what point, in a sitting, does one hit the threshold potential for absorption? For example, it is much more productive to ingest 500mg of vitamin C 10 times a day rather than 5g once a day.

Protein absorption is a very interesting topic. Xamilo has supplied the medical communities consensus answer.

not shockingly, i disagree with the medical community, as i think there are supply and demand issues at stake not accounted for in that equation, along with varying absorption rates with varying protein sources when it relates to athletes and bodybuilders.

Certainly the health of your kidneys plays a major role in how much they can process. How anabolic or catabolic your body is I believe has a role. Also a chemically enhanced bodybuilder ie steroids, has a higher protein turnover rate than one without chemicals (natural competitor).

The bottom line is why do we need protein? As Milos spoke in the first few mins of the video the body uses proteins to repair the body via the amino acids found in protein. So it would be safe to assume if we were to remove actual food out of the equation and replace it with straight amino acids (specifically BCAA's) we could ideally eat less food ---> safer on the kidneys----> and still stay anabolic /anti-catabolic.

I'm all for anything for less food and muscle growth.

I've been part of some interesting research in the past year looking into certain products like MAP-master amino pattern and alternatives to that. Ways to supplement aminos without increased calories and increased foods.

Personally i hate to eat, bodybuilding eating is a full time job. As i dont plan on competing again, i still want to put some size on and stay lean. for the past 12 weeks ive been using a supplement from ALRI called Chain'd Out and have given it to my clients as well.

In both cases the idea was to increase the bioavailability of the amino acids and increase nitrogen retention. What i've experienced is without changing a thing to my diet, and my diet is pretty strict, ive been able to add 54 grams of BCAA's during the day/night and have added 9 lbs while significantly lowering my body fat. its kept my body in an anabolic window throughout the day. meaning when the body wants to repair, it looks into the bloodstream for aminos where ive kept a steady stream of them in there for it to find and utilize. (pretty smart huh! :) )

the problem with the MAP was that it wasnt made for athletes rather burn victims / hospital patients. great results but not enough horsepower as the ingredients in Chain'd Out.

PhD candidate Layne Norton has done some very interesting research in his lab regarding amino acids on this topic - page 47 below -

ALR Industries - Fall/Winter 2009 Magazine & Product Catalog


regarding oral supplementation of vitamin c - xamillo is correct on that it is water soluble vitamin and excess will be just flushed out.

Though one point on any oral supplementation - as the point of any supplement is to get it into your bloodstream - i prefer to break up my vitamin intake throughout the course of the day. instead of taking one big batch in the morning, ill divide it up 3-4x's throughout the day. Much steadier stream.
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
Xam, if you were to take 2g of vitC in the morning, I imagine your body could not absorb that kind of colossal amount. So assume the body can absorb 1g; won't the other half be urinated out?

That, as opposed to taking 1g, then another gram 10 hours later. How can there be no difference in absorption?
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
Michael,

Thanks for sharing the Milos information. If you have any others please feel free to share-very interesting and enlightening plus I don't think anyone can ever have too much information regarding diet...keep your mind open you may just learn something that works for you.

74 thing,

my pleasure! Im glad you enjoyed it! dailymotion has i believe all 6 of milos' videos. he is brilliant! its great source/reference material!

Michael

ps. one comment on Milos. His athletes are some of the best. He really pushes the envelope with his clients and has produced some real freaks on stage. guy knows his bio-chemistry
 

xamilo

Right Curving Driver....
Supporting Member
Dec 22, 2007
2,924
301
Xam, if you were to take 2g of vitC in the morning, I imagine your body could not absorb that kind of colossal amount. So assume the body can absorb 1g; won't the other half be urinated out?

That, as opposed to taking 1g, then another gram 10 hours later. How can there be no difference in absorption?

Your statement is absolutely correct, but you have to take into account the amount of time a molecule can circulate in your body BEFORE being urinated out.

Let's use a golf analogy. Let's say you have 9 cans of cold bear for your 18 holes, and you can't drink any more cause you are full. You can either pack them when you start or you can get them from the Cart Girl every 6 holes. To start with you would need 9 cans from the beginning. Using the Cart Girl you'll need to pack 3 cans each time.

If you use the first alternative the last 3 beers will be warm and horrible when you reach the last holes, so you will better throw them away ("urinate the excess Vitamin C")

If you use the second alternative, you would be having cold beer during the 18 holes. (Dividing the total amount of Vitamin C every 6 hours let's say).

If you were to have a Beer Cart EVERY hole, would you be getting 3 beers every hole if your maximum capacity is still 9 cans? No, cause you would still have a maximum capacity for 9 beers.

That is why it doesn't make a difference when you have saturated the amount of Vitamin C your body can handle. Even if you gave it intravenous drop by drop during the day, you can't have more than you can handle.

Vitamin C half life is around 30 minutes BUT L-Ascorbic Acid (the way Vitamin C comes for human consumption) tablets have some other "molecules" in them (not going over this to avoid making you bored) which make absorption really slow, so you can have the 2g (daily dosage) in one take and would be almost the same as taking it every six hours. Twenty years ago it might have made "a little" difference, but with today's pharmacological features in tablets and pills, it is of no use. So, breaking up the Vitamin C intake during the day makes it just a hasle with no aditional effect, since levels will maintain constant during the day.

For our analogy, its like having a cooler in your golf bag!!!!

Some people claim the more vitamins you consume, the better, when huge Class I studies with Grade A evidence have concluded there is no additional benefit in consuming more than your bod can handle.

In case you want the reference (which I doubt since its a boring long read, but just in case ;)), here's the Metha-analysis bibliography from the Journal of the American Medical Association regarding Vitamin C supplementation.

Bjelakovic G, et al. (2007). "Mortality in randomized trials of antioxidant supplements for primary and secondary prevention: systematic review and meta-analysis". JAMA 297 (8): 842–57. PMID 17327526.


I hope I answered your question....

Cheers mate...
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
Actually, based on the "cooler" analogy, seems like you're telling me it SHOULD be split up for more absorption...?

Forget analogies. Gimme these facts:

How much vitamin C can a healthy 21 year old male, weighing 145-165, with no health anomolies absorb?

Secondly; I urinate more than once a day, so I'm assuming that once the "excess" is removed, it would be beneficial to take another dose (or the second half of the initial dose) for another round of absorption. If I were to analogize this, I'd imagine pouring a pitcher of vitamin C into a shot-glass. Pour it all at once, and the vast majority of it will go to waste. Pour it a little at a time, and you can enjoy every drop.

My current regimen is 1,000mg (1g) in the morning with a few other vitamins, and another 1,000mg (1g) sometime in the evening. I might be passing the threshold twice, but it makes sense to me that it's better to pass it by less twice than insurmountably once; as the total excess will be smaller due to a second chance for absorption.

I don't want to take more than my body can use. I realize that THAT is a waste. I want to take exactly as much as my body can use, and not less.
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
Actually, based on the "cooler" analogy, seems like you're telling me it SHOULD be split up for more absorption...?

Forget analogies. Gimme these facts:

How much vitamin C can a healthy 21 year old male, weighing 145-165, with no health anomolies absorb?

Secondly; I urinate more than once a day, so I'm assuming that once the "excess" is removed, it would be beneficial to take another dose (or the second half of the initial dose) for another round of absorption. If I were to analogize this, I'd imagine pouring a pitcher of vitamin C into a shot-glass. Pour it all at once, and the vast majority of it will go to waste. Pour it a little at a time, and you can enjoy every drop.

My current regimen is 1,000mg (1g) in the morning with a few other vitamins, and another 1,000mg (1g) sometime in the evening. I might be passing the threshold twice, but it makes sense to me that it's better to pass it by less twice than insurmountably once; as the total excess will be smaller due to a second chance for absorption.

I don't want to take more than my body can use. I realize that THAT is a waste. I want to take exactly as much as my body can use, and not less.

i have my clients take between 1-3g a day depending on size and training intensity. for a person your size, i wouldnt worry about overdose and/or waste. Id rather you pee out excess than not get enough and the stuff is cheap enough.

I think your covered with your dosing, if you want, take a 3rd dose on more active days or if you feel sick.

i take this one myself NSI Advan-C® with Quercetin & Citrus Bioflavonoids -- 1000 mg - 180 Capsules - Vitacost
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
I have heard that putting on muscle burns fat.

Is that because muscle replaces fat, burns fat or the fact you have to work out to build muscles burns calories..

And how does cardio work into that? I have heard more muscle is better then cardio.

going back to the original post, i saw this today posted on a different forum.

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xamilo

Right Curving Driver....
Supporting Member
Dec 22, 2007
2,924
301
Actually, based on the "cooler" analogy, seems like you're telling me it SHOULD be split up for more absorption...?

Forget analogies. Gimme these facts:

How much vitamin C can a healthy 21 year old male, weighing 145-165, with no health anomolies absorb?

Secondly; I urinate more than once a day, so I'm assuming that once the "excess" is removed, it would be beneficial to take another dose (or the second half of the initial dose) for another round of absorption. If I were to analogize this, I'd imagine pouring a pitcher of vitamin C into a shot-glass. Pour it all at once, and the vast majority of it will go to waste. Pour it a little at a time, and you can enjoy every drop.

My current regimen is 1,000mg (1g) in the morning with a few other vitamins, and another 1,000mg (1g) sometime in the evening. I might be passing the threshold twice, but it makes sense to me that it's better to pass it by less twice than insurmountably once; as the total excess will be smaller due to a second chance for absorption.

I don't want to take more than my body can use. I realize that THAT is a waste. I want to take exactly as much as my body can use, and not less.

No, I think you didn't understand the analogy, and I'm sorry if I confused you :D. The idea is the molecule is not absorbed as soon as you ingest it, and it is not "urinated" or "eliminated" immediately, but it stays in your organism for a long while, so you don't need to space up the dosage.

Conclusive studies have shown supplementation over 1g a day is more than enough for a person doing regular athletic activity. Bigger dosages have shown no benefit at all, unless there are certain conditions like malnutrition, immunodeficiency syndromes, etc.

Remember you have to calculate the amount of Vitamin C you get from food as well, which, in a balanced diet, should be more than enough for your daily requirements. In that case you are "spacing it through the day2 (to make you happy with this point :D

You can do the experiment yourself, and increase the intake for a month and you'll realize there is absolutely no difference at all; or you can split your dosage for a change, and see there is no more difference than the hassle of taking it every now and then.

Unfortunately, the marketing business (and then they say we doctors are the ones trying to sell people drugs) has made people believe they need to supplement their foods with every possible extra vitamin or molecule out there just to increase economical profit. Lack of information and the fact people take "other people's word" as truth just because "they heard of it" its what makes this nutrition world so complicated. As well, as we were speaking before, some people react at evidence with answers like "Well, I have taken this or that and it h worked for me", even if serious studies have shown absolutely no benefit. What they don't realize is placebo effect is WAY HIGHER than they can even think of.

SO don't worry, you're taking more than enough Vitamin C. Just include ome Oranges if you wan to feel better about yourself :D
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
Unfortunately, the marketing business (and then they say we doctors are the ones trying to sell people drugs) has made people believe they need to supplement their foods with every possible extra vitamin or molecule out there just to increase economical profit.

Xamilo -

you bring up a great and yes unfortunate point with the marketing - it groups good doctors like yourself, (who obviously genuinely care for their patients) with the ones that 'just push meds'.

here in the states, i've seen first hand what the drug companies do in order to get market share and higher sales #'s.

going a lil off topic here (ironic in the off topic thread ;) ) when i used to work in connecticut, some of our best clients were sales reps for pharmaceutical companies. they used to rent out the facility for the day, fully catered, then give a 20 min presentation at the end on the latest and greatest new drug.

most of the doctors that would show were also clients of mine, they used to tell me how every prescription they'd write would be tracked and they would get bonuses from the companies if they hit certain quotas. this one 'mensch' super nice guy, would tell me he would play the system, he'd be sure to write on the prescription "cannot be substituted for generic" that way he'd not feel guilty on his great big pharma sponsored holiday in the Caribbean.

on top of that, the insurance companies here also stranglehold the good docs from actually practicing medicine into practicing just enough to keep costs low.

the system is quite screwed up. its a conundrum that i dont wish upon anyone.

my advice find out as much as you can for yourself, blend that with a doctor that has alot of experience with athletes that deal with pushing the limits of human performance - the logic being if they can fix extreme cases well, then they're well versed in handling moderate cases. tie in a good personal trainer, supplements that work and a good golf instructor - move to a tropical island with a golf courses designed by nicklaus, dye, and fazio and hey life is good =)

thats my $.02 on it
 

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