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Forgive me golf gods, I have sinned......

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ualtim

ualtim

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I was out and about today, and knowing that my Eye 2 +'s were expected to arrive I visited Golfsmith to pick up 8 Lamkin Dual Density Torsion controls to install on the new ho. As expected, when I arrived home I saw that the UPS man had already visited the homestead and dropped off my new prize.

The Eye 2's were in amazing condition considering their born on date was Sept 17, 1991. I checked them all out and could only find the fainest hint of a ding on the top line of one club. The grips were worn as advertised (still IMHO the best way to get a deal on eBay) and came right off. The Lamkins were installed and they are sitting in the garage drying as I type this. Tomorrow, they will visit the range for a test run and then come home for a thorough cleaning and maybe even a run over the buffing wheel to get them shining like new.

Out of curiosity, I called Ping with the serial numbers just to check them out and make sure they were legit and to get the specs. Ping provided the born on date (Sept 17, 1991), original lie angle code, shaft installed and specs, shaft length, and what the original installed grip was. The clubs have not revisited Ping and other than the grips everything matched Ping's database. I did find out that the set was ordered 3-SW, but was only offered up as 3-PW so the SW is floating around out there somewhere. If I choose to, Ping will make a new SW and LW for me with matching serial numbers and specs, but they are currently asking $107.50 each to have them made. I think I will stick with my Srixon WG 504's for now. :laugh:

I am looking forward to giving these a go tomorrow on the range.
 

VtDivot

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you will be bringing that TEE with YS-6 FW with you to WW right?
 
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ualtim

ualtim

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you will be bringing that TEE with YS-6 FW with you to WW right?

Yupper. Best 3W I have ever hit, it goes where I go. The only thing that could knock it out would be a CB2 if I ever find the right deal on one of those.
 

limpalong

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...a thorough cleaning and maybe even a run over the buffing wheel to get them shining like new.

Out of curiosity, I called Ping with the serial numbers just to check them out and make sure they were legit and to get the specs. Ping provided the born on date (Sept 17, 1991), original lie angle code, shaft installed and specs, shaft length, and what the original installed grip was. The clubs have not revisited Ping and other than the grips everything matched Ping's database. I did find out that the set was ordered 3-SW, but was only offered up as 3-PW so the SW is floating around out there somewhere. If I choose to, Ping will make a new SW and LW for me with matching serial numbers and specs, but they are currently asking $107.50 each to have them made. I think I will stick with my Srixon WG 504's for now. :laugh:

I am looking forward to giving these a go tomorrow on the range.

You seem amazed at the pristine condition of such dated clubs. Tried to tell ya!!! Pings are, virtually, indestructible!! They look like recent manufacture... and perform even better!

Also, you comment about Pings exemplery data base. Isn't it amazing that any set of clubs they have produced have the original specs so readily available? This is one reason I recommend only having Ping perform reshafts or loft/lie adjustments. Those alterations performed by Ping will be recorded in their data base and follow the clubs for their entire existence. You stated the cost for the wedges to match. No, you can purchase similar wedges... or use the wedges of your choice... much more cost effective. But, what if you were to lose a 7 iron or a 9 iron. One call and you could replace the lost iron, knowing it would have the identical specs are the rest of the set... and be serialized to match!

It will be interesting to see how you get along with them on the range. As with any set of irons, don't jump to judgement before playing a couple of rounds with them. Be carefull.... be veeeery carefull... you're about to enter the dark side of Ping addiction!!!!
 

SiberianDVM

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ualtim, as much shit as I give anyone about PINGs, it's just all in good fun. They are excellent clubs, just fugly. :)

Last night at the range, an older guy had a brand new set of G10 irons with orange regular flex graphite shafts, 4-PW. He asked me if I wanted to hit them, so I did. Compared to my Hogans, they hit really high, but straight as an arrow, just as long, and they were very easy to hit.

So that convinced me that my next set of irons will be cavity backs, I probably will have Dana Upshaw reshaft the Mizuno MX-11s. He will want to use steel, I will push for graphite, and he will tell me that won't be easy or cheap, and I'll probably settle for steel Rifles. But either way, I should have easier to hit irons for next year.
 
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ualtim

ualtim

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Just got back in from the first range session with the Eye 2's. I must say I was pretty impressed. The most shocking thing was the feel. Same range and same balls I ran the Hogans through and the Pings actually feel better! Very strange indeed.

The wind down in Florida has been up a bit the past few days, and today at the range it was blowing a steady 11 knots with gusts to 17 knots (approx 13 mph to 20 mph). The range faces north and the wind was coming from the north so I was easily looking a 2 club wind and any error would be magnified. I was kind of fearful of what would happen with my shots as I am normally a high ball hitter to begin with and the Pings look to be set up for high ball flight. I have been working on a few changes to my set up to get my ball flight down and today was going to be the perfect opportunity to see how well they worked.

Starting out with the PW, I was pleasantly surprised how fast I adapted over to the new irons. I was getting good solid center of the face contact right from the get go. My ball flight was high, but I was able to start lowering it when I concentrated on my stance amendments. What I was most surprised about as I worked up through the set was the feel the irons passed back to my hands. Ping pours their irons with 17-3 steel which is harder than most other irons I have played. All of my other iron sets have been cast from 431 or 304 steel or forged from carbon steel. 17-3 is more typical in fairway woods and hybrids and I was a bit sceptically going into to the Eye 2's because of this. Simply amazing. Pure it and you know it. Miss the spot by a bit and you know it. Miss the spot by a lot and you definitely know it. Amazing feel from a cast club.

One of the most impressive things with the new/used irons was their accuracy. As earlier mentioned, I was hitting directly into a strong wind and any side spin would magnify the turning tendencies of a slice or a hook. The majority of my iron shots were flying straight and true with just a slight hint of a draw with the exception of two miss hits I had out on the toe of the 6 irons which definitely went right. Very solid ball flight even into the wind. It will be interesting to try them out and see how they do under better conditions.

After I was through with the bucket, I headed over to the practice green for some chipping and putting practice. Took the 9 irons out and my Stratas and was surprised once again by the control with these irons. Great spin, great distance control with my chipping stroke and the Eye 2 9-iron. Short chips I could just roll to the cup with ease. On the long chips, I could be very aggressive as the ball would check up after the first bounce and almost stop. Again, very impressive for the first round of testing.

For the first day with the irons, I am pretty happy. I was able to adapt to them rapidly and was getting good ball flight of them almost from the word go. The feel is amazing for cast clubs, if I were to hit them blind folded I would swear they were forged. Not quite as buttery soft as a Mizuno, but pretty damn close for a cast iron.

Needless to say, they will get another range session when I get back from the cruise and a couple of rounds before I have to decide which irons to take to World Woods. So far, nothing but positive comments on Eye 2 +'s.
 

limpalong

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Tim, great report! Just a couple items...

First, I may be wrong, but the stainless alloy utilized by Ping is 17-4, not 17-3. All 17-4 stainless does not feel the same. The heat treating process used by the particular casting house can change the feel. Ping has their own foundry in Phoenix and casts their own clubs. The heat treating process is unique to Ping.

So many folk do complain because of the high trajectory of Ping. Karsten's "one size fits all" concept was so evident in the original Eye 2's. The wide bottom flange with the ZZ Lite shafts elevated the ball quickly. At that time in the industry, most choices were Hogan, Wilson, MacGregor blades, etc. The difficulty amateurs/beginners had was getting the ball off the ground. The Eye 2/ZZ Lite accomplished that. With the +'s, the KT shaft had a much higher kick point. The KT shaft combined with the repositioned perimeter weighting allowed much more "operator selection" as to trajectory. Our course is very tree lined. I can hit a low punch out from under a tree. Or, I can change ball position and hit an extremely high ball up over a tree. The +'s are amazing as to how you can vary trajectory.

Lastly, an item not covered in earlier posts. Along the way, I have carried... and fully enjoyed... a number of sets of forged blades. (I dearly loved the two sets of 690mb's and, someday, may have another set of those.) Walking onto a course, new playing partners have a propensity to look in your bag. It was not uncommon to hear "Nice blades!" or "Are those new?" or "How can you hit those?" If on that particular day your game comes to the course with you, the blades will be fine. But, if you game stayed home... You can get the looks that say, "He may have a cowboy hat, but he's never ridden a horse!"
The Pings get an interesting look. First, if you don't play that well on a given day, there is no negative thought that you attempted to buy a game. If you play a solid, fair game... the companions will still champion having played with someone whose bag is not beyond their abilities. And, on those days when the game is dead on... My goodness! The "noticers" will say, "This guy's got game and he hits those irons so well!"
I tell the story of a couple years ago when I assisted with some young folks getting ready for the State Amateur tourney. The course I was playing most often, then, was hosting the tourney. Players were coming in on the Sunday before and a number of us were asked to play "welcoming" rounds with them to show them around the course. I was blessed to play with a group of three older teens and a father of one of them. These kids were perfect gentlemen and their games were something like I'd never seen. I had the Eye 2+ BeCu's in the bag. None of the 3 kids have ever seen BeCu irons. One of them asked if they were a one-of-a-kind set from Ping. The irons got attention, that day, because of the play. I had one of my better ball striking days and the kids were complimentry of this ol' man. I was so glad had the Pings in the bag vs. the blades that were left in the basement. The comments and conversations added to the enjoyment of the day.

Enjoy your cruise. Envious I'm stuck in the Midwest and not having the same opportunity. Give us more feedback as you return and pick the Pings back up!
 

warbirdlover

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17-4 stainless can not be hardened by quenching (some stainless steels can such as 440). It is typically used in the annealed (heated and air cooled) "A" condition or "precipitation" hardened (heated, water quenched and then tempered or "aged") which will slightly bring up the hardness from what you initially had before heat treating. It is not like normal steels where quenching will make them very hard where they have to be tempered "down" to the desired hardness range. 17-4 actually gets "softer" when quenched and the aging raises the hardness back up. :D (You really didn't want to know this did you?)... :(
17-4.jpg
 
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ualtim

ualtim

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First, I may be wrong, but the stainless alloy utilized by Ping is 17-4, not 17-3. All 17-4 stainless does not feel the same. The heat treating process used by the particular casting house can change the feel. Ping has their own foundry in Phoenix and casts their own clubs. The heat treating process is unique to Ping.

I think your right on that 17-4. When I was writing up the post I was pulling it from the dark recessess of my brain that was still overjoyed with the range session, not looking forward to packing for the trip, and wondering what I was going to eat for lunch. This brain only stores so much before it overloads.:laugh:


WBL, I read the post, but I am not quite sure what you were trying to get at. 17-4 gets harder with age and softer with heat treating? I guess I'll leave them in my trunk during the summer. :D Besides, the table is too much like work, this boy is on vacation. Dumb it down for me would ya? :D
 

warbirdlover

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When you harden steel you "temper" it by re-heating to the temperature which gives you the hardness you want ("As-quenched" comes out Rockwell "C" 50, and then tempered at 1100º F brings it down to Rockwell "C" 30 or so).

17-4 gets softer when quenched and then you temper it and the hardness instead of going down comes up to a little harder then what you started with. Only the term tempering isn't used. It's called "aging".

Just some metallurgical BS. :D
 

limpalong

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17-4 stainless can not be hardened by quenching (some stainless steels can such as 440). It is typically used in the annealed (heated and air cooled) "A" condition or "precipitation" hardened (heated, water quenched and then tempered or "aged") which will slightly bring up the hardness from what you initially had before heat treating. It is not like normal steels where quenching will make them very hard where they have to be tempered "down" to the desired hardness range. 17-4 actually gets "softer" when quenched and the aging raises the hardness back up. :D (You really didn't want to know this did you?)... :(

Okay, perfessor... it's 6 a.m. and this ol' brain can't digest all the chart is trying to tell me. (Leave it to an engineer to try to confuse us with numbers and theroms!!!!:laugh:)

Here's what I did pick up with a quick look through the explanation to the chart. First, they say there have been 8 different heat treating processes developed for 17-4. It also seems to say the heat treating process chosen would provide the best combination of hardness vs. annealing that fits the intended use of the alloy. Karsten got his start in the casting of exotic metals for the aircraft industry. The casting of golf clubs is only a small portion of Ping's business today. Karsten Industries is still a casting house with numerous customers from a mirade of industries. I would think this has allowed Ping to utilize the heat treating process they feel provides the hardest clubface that still allows the flexibility to bend for loft and lie adjustment.

There are a couple of other "interesting" questions raised. Some have the false pretense that stainless steel does not rust/oxidize. Stainless will rust. Stainless is just less apt to oxidize than carbon steels. Over the years, from the Eyes through the ISI's you could never hardly ever find a spot of rust on a Ping iron. Since the I3's through the I5's and G5's, we've heard some varying complaints about rust forming on the Ping irons. Why? Did Karsten change the heat treating process slightly? Or, more likely, did the ingredient metals of the alloy process change sources or supply?

The "aging" talked about in the chart you present... what is this? Isn't this a component of the casting/curing process? This isn't, simply, the "life" of the end product is it? Ping won't bend some really old Eyes and Eye 2's anymore. They say the metal has become brittle and less "plastic". Isn't one of the components of the 17-4 alloy aluminum? Is that responsible for the brittleness?

WBL, you're a metalurgist. You're an expert in the field. Why don't you develop a new allow for use in the manufacture of driver/fairway faces... get wealthy from selling that idea to Callaway or Titleist... and then have your very own stable of WBL brand drivers at your disposal??? Instead of dozens of driver changes/year, you could move to hundreds!!!!!:laugh::laugh:
 

warbirdlover

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Aging is a heat treating "term" used commonly for aluminum and some stainless steel in place of the term tempering used when heat treating ferrous alloys. It just is a heat treatment that follows the quenching from high temperature. It's lower temperature (usually below 1000º F and more often around 300º F). :)

It has nothing to do with the life of the product. Ping only allows so many bends because the harder the metal the quicker it "work hardens" from bending and becomes more brittle. The main component in stainless is chromium. Not much aluminum in ss but you are right about aluminum in steel. Too much aluminum and it cracks when bending. (We tested the steel chemistry on some critical parts and if there was too much aluminum did a "bend test" to pass or reject them. If they cracked by the bend they were rejected).

They've found nothing better (for the buck) then titanium for driver faces. The problem is with the USGA limitations they could use almost any metal and meet the limit so it's mostly now just a sales pitch, like the "maraging" steel you've heard of. Wishon makes note of this in his book. Now there's the "metallic glass" (or also called amorphous metal) which really gives some pop. Ever hear of those "liquid metal" drivers? I think they are non-conforming and the USGA rules also made them not worth the cost to make. :)
 

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