Handicap cut ??

[Lee...]

I started golf 4 months ago on a 28 handicap...just played our local club medal off the white tees and shot a 96 (outstanding for me!!!) with a net of 68 which was -5 for the round. My club cut my handicap to 21 $%&**&^ers . I am not a 21 handicap player and I feel p*ss*ed off at my club. Is this the norm ? to cut handicaps by 7 Strokes? Regards Lee

 

[The master]

How can they cut you 7 shots that is against the handicapping syatems rules you must be cut 0.4 for each divison better than your handicap so there for assuming css is the same as the par of the course you should be playing off 26 at best you should off been cut 1.6 . Your club is wrong.

 

[dave.]

20 yrs ago,handicap secs could do what the hell they liked,don't know about now.SSS can vary daily but that doesn't explain it either.

 

[Lee...]

Hi master, they used performance rule 19 ???? may take up tennis.... feel really crappy after what they have done....I guess the bigwig low handicappers were upset at my good round (which it was) live and learn....Regards Lee

 

[Kilted Arab]

I started golf 4 months ago on a 28 handicap...just played our local club medal off the white tees and shot a 96 (outstanding for me!!!) with a net of 68 which was -5 for the round. My club cut my handicap to 21 $%&**&^ers . I am not a 21 handicap player and I feel p*ss*ed off at my club. Is this the norm ? to cut handicaps by 7 Strokes? Regards Lee

You are suffering a backlash from a problem mentioned on these forums fairly frequently. High-handicappers entering competitions then shooting 10 shots or more better than their handicap and winning the competition.

Dave Ireland recently started a good thread on this very subject. He was playing a matchplay competition against a 19 handicapper who was level par after 9 holes, and eventually lost 6 & 5. These people are cheats, and in an effort to root out these cheats it is possible that genuine high-handicappers who have one good round in competition will suffer.

However, your handicap will find a true level the more rounds you play - your handicap committee will have more info on which to base your handicap. Have they given you a full verbal explanation, od just said "rule 19" and left it at that?

 

[Augster]

A brief overview on handicap.

A player's handicap is based on the best 10 of his last 20 rounds. How many rounds do you have in the computer?

The actual index for your round is the ESC'd(equitable stroke control) score you shot, minus the tees you played index, TIMES 113, DIVIDED BY the slope of the tees you played.

After you take your ten best of the last 20, your index is 96% of that.

One extra caveat is tournament scores. Your best tournament scores are kept in the computer for a year. If you shoot two tournament scores that are at least 3 strokes better than your index, you are docked.

So, has this happened before in a tourney?

This is designed to keep the baggers at bay. Guys that all of a sudden are "focused" because it's a tourney. My ass.

If you took a dock like that, is it because it's your second "great" tourney score?

Here's the example from the USGA site. It's about a guy that had a 17.6 handicap and shot 82 and 83 in tourneys:

Tournament Score -- Course Rating: 82-70.6 = 11.4
Difference x 113: 11.4 x 113 = 1288.2
Result/Slope Rating: 1288.2/130 = 9.9
Lowest Tournament Score Differential: 9.9
2nd Lowest Tournament Score Differential: (83-70.6)x113/130=10.8
USGA Handicap Index under Section 10-2: 17.6
Second Lowest Differential: -10.8
6.8
Since 6.8 is greater than 3.0, continue.


Average the two lowest tournament score differentials.
(9.9 + 10.8)/2=10.35

Subtract that average from the player’s Handicap Index.
17.6-10.35=7.25

Using the number derived in step (iv) and the total number of tournament scores in the player’s record, enter the Handicap Reduction Table below to determine the amount the player’s Index is to be reduced.

Subtract the Table value from the player’s Handicap Index. The result of that subtraction will be the player’s USGA Handicap Index provided that it is at least one less than his USGA Handicap Index based on the Formula in Section 10-2.

TABLE OMITTED

Value from Handicap Reduction Table: 5.0
Handicap Index -- Table Value: 17.6-5.0=12.6
USGA Handicap Index: 12.6


So, you can see, this 18 handicapper is now a 13 because of his tourney scores.

That's in the USGA. You must be R&A as I couldn't find anything on a "Performance Rule 19" in the USGA Handicap Handbook.

Anyway, if you've posted two good tourney scores (men's club events), and are governed by the USGA, this could explain your docking of 7 strokes.

BUT, if your white tees are "normal" tees, this wouldn't even come into play and I have no idea what the guys at your club are grousing about. Unless your 96 was all pars and birdies, then a couple of "throw away holes" 13's and such to "keep your handicap up" then they'd have a legit bitch. If your ESC'd 96 turns into a 86 or so, then I can see it. But without any ESC'd holes, a 96 is well within the realm of a score a 28 can shoot.

My course, from the whites is fairly typical and pretty easy. It's rating and slope is 68.8/119. From the earlier example, let's check your score assuming you haven't posted a better tourney score and your 96 was actually a 96 without any ESC's.

96-68.8= 27.2 27.2 * 113= 3073.6 / 119= 25.83.

So, as you can see, if you started with an index of 28, the tourney index of 25.83 wouldn't even be 3 strokes less than your index and wouldn't "raise a flag" of an exceptional tournament score.

I really don't see why they'd take you down 7 strokes because you had, basically, a 4 stroke variance to your handicap, in relation to par. If you relate your 28 handicap to the course rating of my white tees, you shot exactly what you should shoot. (68.8+28= 96.8) High handicappers are going to have more variance, low handicappers are going to be more consistent. It's just the way it is.

The only way I can see the tourney rules kicking in is if you really sandbagged, had all birdies and pars, then had like two 13 holes to make your 96. The ESC would kick in and chop a bunch off. Unless you say that's what happened, then I will assume you just made a bunch of doubles and triples and ended up 24 over on the day.

With that being the case, I would go to them and explain that you aren't a bagger, bring your scorecard with, and also add your index to the course rating. I'm sure it'll be within a few strokes of 96.

Lastly, with the assumption that your course is a par 72, your 96 was 24 over par. 24 is 85% of 28. So, you shot 15% better than your handicap. If you take a player that is an 8 handicap, and take 15% off, that is 1.2 strokes. So on the same par 72 course, would they make the same bitch if the 8 handicapper posted a 78 (6 over par, 8-1.2 strokes)? I highly doubt it.

It's really just variance, and there's more at the higher levels.

If they still won't replace your standing, tell them to go **** themselves.

I hope this helps.

 

[Kilted Arab]

Augster, that's a stunning answer. Well done on taking the time and effort to post that, I'm sure there's something for all of us there.

 

[Silver]

Wow, that is a good answer.

I'm glad they didn't pull that shit at the tourney series that I'm playing in. Technically, I'm about a 19.2 right now, although when the series started, I was about 24 and marked that down when I signed up. I proceeded to start with two total ass rounds (102 and 105) and then played a partially ass round of 96 and won my flight. Theoretically, as I'm still in the same flight, and if I shoot around what I've been shooting lately (low 90s/high 80s), I should blow my flight out in tomorrow's tourney. Hopefully I take home more than a crappy ass $50 CAD golf club this time. The last guy that won my flight won a bombin BBQ worth about $450.

Don't let them think you're bagging because you had one good round. If they tried to pull that shit at a tourney I played in, I'd just never play again and they're losing out on a tourney fee. No help to them if they're jerks about it.

 

[dave.]

I didn't understand a word of it,but the time it took to reply was appreciated.I have never heard of sloping tees and Esc.I've heard of handicap categories and SSS,thats it.

 

[Kilted Arab]

I didn't understand a word of it,but the time it took to reply was appreciated.I have never heard of sloping tees and Esc.I've heard of handicap categories and SSS,thats it.

Typical seppos, Dave...gotta make it more complicated than it actually is!

:ukflag:

 

[Augster]

I didn't understand a word of it,but the time it took to reply was appreciated.I have never heard of sloping tees and Esc.I've heard of handicap categories and SSS,thats it.

You and Lee probably aren't in America as your SSS has me lost. LMAO!

In the US, all the most playable courses is given an index and a slope. The index is "supposedly" what a scratch golfer would shoot from those tees. So, in my example, over time a scratch golfer would expect to shoot around 68-69 playing the tees I cited above. (68.8) My course is a par 71, so a scratch would probably shoot 2 or 3 under a lot of the time.

I think the R&A has something similiar.

The USGA also gives a Slope rating which, essentially, is just a divisor to tell how "hard" the course is. The mean divisor that they use is 113 which is essentially a flat, short, course without many hazards. I've seen, and played, a few courses that are under 113 for the slope, but not many. Once you get into a slope in the high 120's and 130's, you know you are playing a course that will bite you in the ass if you hit bad shots.

For ESC, Equitable Stroke Control, the USGA has set up a "maximum" you can take on each hole for your handicap "group". It doesn't matter if you are in a tourney or not, the ESC is always in effect when posting a score for your handicap.

Handicap______SCORE

9 or less------- Double-Bogey
10-19 ------------7
20-29 ------------8
30-39 ------------9
40+-------------- 10


So, as a 28 handicap, Lee can only take a maximum of 8 strokes on a hole "for handicap". So, if he puts a 13 on the card, he is "ESC-ing" 5 shots on that hole. So for posting purposes, if he actually shoots 102, the "ESC'd" score he actually posts for handicap is 97, assuming it's his only hole he had over 8 strokes.

The most ESC strokes I've taken in a round happened just two Fridays ago. I'm playing to an 8 then, (9 now, sheesh that's high) and the max I can take is a double bogey. I played just a terrible round and shot a legit 98. Because of so many triples and quads, the ESC'd score I actually handed in was 89. 9 ESC strokes, my personal best (worst )

I hope that clears up any confusion.

 

[obagain]

If you score that well in tournies the director will sometimes take it upon himself to lower your handicap for a couple of tournies because of the sandbaggers out there. It isn;t fair but that is how it works sometimes.

If I am a legit 4 and I constantly get killed by 20 handicaps you can see the frustration, a handicap is supposed to level the play not give an unfair advantage.

 

[Kilted Arab]

Augster, gotta ask...how do you know all this crap? Very impressed you do, though!

 

[Augster]

KA,

I'm a total rules and regulations nutjob. :biglol: I just need to know, you know.

I re-read the rule book twice a year, once at the beginning of the season, once in the middle toward club championship-time. I also was kind of "forced" into semi-memorizing the handicap handbook because of a couple of folks in my club not posting scores.

They are my friends, and really good players. One of the guys is a 4 but doesn't want to go any lower. He was in a best ball, and shot lights out, but had to take his partners score (birdies) on a couple of holes and was in his pocket on another. So he didn't post.

Even with all that, he had enough birdies and such that if he had followed the handicap handbook, he would have known that when your partner is in with birdie and you have say a 20-footer for par, and you pick up, you write down what you most likely "would" have taken. Thus, he most likely "would" have bogeyed. And when you launch two OB and don't finish out, the most you can take on a hole, at a 4 handicap, is a double bogey.

So even with those things in mind, he would have played well enough to post a tournament 68, with the pocket double and a two "picked up" bogies. That score would have WRECKED his 4 handicap for a year as it was a 24-man team match. A tournament round.

So I have read the entire thing, and printed it out, and posted it on our men's club bulletin board with all the above violations highlighted in case any of these situations are discussed in the future. Some guys won't post a score if they win their match, in say 15 holes. Since they have played more than 13, they should post it as a completed round just taking their score as related to the handicap of the last 3 holes and post. A lot of the guys in the club don't.

A lot of guys will play their match play individual matches and not post when they win 4&3. If they win with that margin, you know they played pretty well. They'll say they didn't finish, or they were told to "pick up" a few putts so they won't post. That's just bullshit. It's clearly laid out in the handbook what to do.

The main thing I am looking for, in the handicap handbook, and the Rules of Golf, is an edge. I'm on the flip side of things. I want my handicap a LOW as possible. It just makes me feel better being a 4 as opposed to a 9. But I don't cheat, and won't, and I post everything, so I'm always looking for a bit of an edge to keep my handicap low.

There isn't really a good, legal way to artificially keep your handicap low without cheating, but there ARE many loopholes and edges that can be gained through the Rules of Golf in order to keep your SCORES lower. Lower scores will eventually equal a lower handicap.

Let me amend that, there is ONE good legal way to lower your handicap, the walk-in. Let's say I'm a 9 handicap and I shot 2 over on the front. I make the turn and the wheels are starting to come off. I start par-bogey-par-bogey and am now 4 over. There is one really tough hole left, the 2 handicap, that my now wayward driver is going to turn into a double. There are also many easy holes that are higher than my index, the 10, 12, 14, and 18 handicaps are mixed in with the 2 in the last 5 holes. They are laid out 18-14-2-12-10. If I feel I can pull it together, I may try to birdie the 18 handicap, then most likely I'll "get a phone call", or cite "inclement weather"(don't forget too hot or sunny or buggy can be inclement also) or "too dark" to continue and walk in. Thus, if I make my birdie on the 18 handicap, that drops me to 3 over, and I card, coming in, par-bogey-par-par. 4 over.

As a 9 handicap, I KNOW that a 4 over round will be a keeper and thus, help lower my score. If I feel the wheels coming off, and bogey the 18, bogey the 14, double the 2, bogey the 12 and par the 10, I am now 9 over and have kind of wasted the 2 over front 9. The 9 over score most likely won't even be a keeper, and I've pissed away another good start. But if I walk in, I cut into my handicap.

Does this keep my handicap artificially low? Of course, but not by much. How many times are you actually out there playing by yourself and actually want to STOP playing. Not many.

We all know how to cheat the system and get a high handicap. Post your crappy or fictitious scores, and don't post good ones. Simple. For a low handicap, if I just threw in a bunch of 72's and 68's, a LOT of people would be asking me about it, especially when I'm a 1 handicap and never break 80 in the club events.

 

[Bravo]

Great explanation Aug...I was familiar with all of it except the 'two low rounds in a tourney' part. I learned something there.

Lee needs to investigate how handicaps are calculated at his course.

I would speculate that 85% of the (average to better)courses in the U.S. now use the GHIN system - which is the system Aug described in detail. In this regard, no human being is involved in making subjective judgements on what a player's handicap is. Our club has No Handicap Committee. The 'committee' is GHIN. CONGU in the UK appears to be an amalgamation of several handicapping organizations across GB and is the UK equivalent of GHIN.

In our tourney last weekend, I heard it over and over...."I played with a 28 handicapper who shot a 78 with a triple...we are in first place in our flight...yadayadayada...

It can get sickening to those of us who Turn in Each and Every score and have a legit handicap....