I am curious about the term "forgiveness"

[cypressperch]

in clubs. I am also not sure of what a blade is anymore because I always thought of a blade as what is now referred to as a muscle back. I do not understand how a cavity back can be a blade. And then there is the term "game improvement clubs" which really throws me for a loop. If Tiger Woods used a game improvement club would his game improve? How does one kind of club improve a game so that it gets called this name?

I might be in the market for new irons. The Titleist 695MB is where I am leaning at present. These clubs come closest in appearance to my 1976 Spalding Topflite Pro-Forged irons that I have used since 1976.

Mizuno irons look very nice. I hit some into a net indoors a few days ago, but that situation just isn't a good test of a club to me. The sound of the ball popping into the barrier sort of shakes your senses right when the feel of the shot is being, or trying to be registered in my mind. I hit the 32, 60, and 67's. I am not sure what "cut muscle" does for the club, and maybe someone could shed light on that.

I go to the Mizuno web site, and it seems that the pros on their staff simply endorse whatever the newest club out happens to be. Of course, if they are improving their product, that would make sense. But one wonders at just how much improvement could be made with these clubs. When the 60's came out, they said it added forgiveness to the 32's which was an improvement. Now the 67's are out, and they are not the cavity back like the 60's that supposedly were an improvement over the 32's. This is a little confusing to one who never kept up with the new terms that have developed. (I still have a hard time calling metals woods.)

Then there is the set of Titleist irons that has no cavity in the short irons, then a certain cavity for the mid-range irons, and a second cavity for the long irons. Is it really that much harder for some players to hit shots with longer clubs? And again, why wouldn't you want your short irons to have cavity backs?

I anticipate someone saying that it all depends on how good a golf swing one has, but on the Titleist website, there are plenty of pros that are using each of the several sets of irons that Titleist has on the market. So all of this is sort of confusing to me, and I would greatly appreciate your thoughts. Sincerely, Cypressperch


As I said before, I might be in the market for new irons. Is there an iron out there that can really help me make better shots, or make just as good shots but easier? I have used my irons a long time and have had success with them, so I am reluctant to change. But if there are irons out there that could improve my game as much as my more up-to-date metals have, I would have to consider making a move.

 

[Johnny Par]

Tiger's game probably wouldn't improve with cavity backs becuase he would be giving up the workability he gets from his blades.

Game Improvement irons, cavity backs offer more forgivness beucase even with off center hits, the ball will kinda go straight. Whereas, an off center hit on a blade would produce a hook, slice, etc...

To me, MP 32's are blades with the muscle back to give it a little more forgiveness than a true blade. When I tried some blades at Golfsmith, I definitely noticed that it was easier to hit the MP 32 over the Cleveland CG1.

If you look on the Mizuno website, down at the bottom, they break out their clubs into 2 groups, Game Advancement (MP) and Game improvement (MX). You'll notice that the MP group is all blades and semi - blades, whereas the MX line is all deep cavity back.

Hopefully I got everything I explained above correct, if not, someone please correct me as I have only been playing this game for about a month.

BTW, love my Mizuno MX 23's. :miz:

Here's a link on cut muscle technology: http://www.cutmuscle.com//

 

[SiberianDVM]

Eldrick could win with a mashie-niblick and a Calamity Jane putter.

And, yes, some of us hackers have a terrible time hitting long irons, cavity back or no cavity back. So much so that we spend all of our range time hitting long irons. Then when we go out to play, we discover all of our 8 iron shots go 30 feet right.

Darn game.

 

[dave.]

A blade and a muscle back are one and the same thing.The muscle part is a description of where the weight is i.e 'mid muscle' means and average ball flight because the weight is somewhere near the bottom of the face.The Titleist 670 on the other hand has the weight in the middle of the face for a lower ball flight.All the older blades could have been called muscle backs,but the term is a modern one.

And a cavity back cannot be a blade,they are two different animals.Foregiveness is relative,but if you put the weight around the edge of a club,your mishits will have less sidespin and therefore will not fly off line as much,and the ball will fly further than a mishit off a blade,which don't go anywhere.But I think the main reasons for foregiveness in cavity or perimeter weighted clubs (same thing) are;

1) offset,helping to square the face=foregiving
2) weight low down for help getting the ball airborn=forgiving
3) less sidespin=forgiving
4) less spin so the ball goes further=forgiving for the duffer

Blades on the other hand,spin more,will probably fly lower so need pure strikes,will have minimum offset so you need a decent swing and the heads and sweetspots are smaller,so you need consistency.

 

[VtDivot]

I go to the Mizuno web site, and it seems that the pros on their staff simply endorse whatever the newest club out happens to be.

Most of the Mizuno staffers are either playing the old MP-33 or the MP-37.

I think Donald plays the 32's and maybe a few guys on the Senior tour do, but very few play the 60's.

 

[JEFF4i]

Forgiveness and workability are inversely proportionate. To think about it, the only difference between a hook and a draw is if you intended to hit it. Many times I find myself drawing around a tree on purpose, while others hook the ball to the left sand trap. On the note of intention of shot, that includes the ability to hit differing shots.

Honestly, you can't go wrong with Titleist or Mizuno. I loved my DCI 990s and am fanatical about my MP-33s. Something for a bit more forgiving than your traditional blade would be something like the 695CBs or the MP-32s(67s, and 60s for more forgiveness). The best way to know what you like really, it to go out and hit them at a range if possible, or at very worst in a shop with a launch monitor.

Last note: Get them fitted, you'll be happy for it.

 

[sidvicious]

like forcing an entire person into a partucular political persuasion, golf clubs are equally ambigious.

IN MY OPINION the thing to consider when choosing player' clubs [blades, or smaller headed forged clubs w/ a small carved cavity] or game improvement clubs [everything else] is the strength of the player and the swing finish.

if a person can finish a swing and has decent strength, then player's clubs are the choice.

game improvement clubs help those with abbreviated swings and slower swing speeds.

"forgiveness" is an overstatement. a lousy struck ball is just as lousy between the two. a duff is a duff.

personally i prefer the concentrated weight of the player's clubs. i use hogan apex's at the moment.

game improvement clubs tend to have hot spots. this is, for example, where a club is much longer comparatively than others in the set. players clubs can feel or sound lousy if not centered.

 

[dave.]

Yes,a duff is a duff,but a ball in a lake is still more unplayable than a ball in a greenside bunker.