My thoughts on Watchmen--

[SilverUberXeno]

SPOILERS TO FOLLOW
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(and I don't mean the movie, though that will spoil your day)
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Okay Zaphy, as I said in the Creationism thread, I really didn't like this movie. I feel like it was a letdown in a plethora of ways. So I'll begin with what I LIKED, since that won't take long. I'm also going to compare Watchmen to 2 other movies that are similar in their relative respects, and which both do a VASTLY better job of conveying that respect.

LIKES:

1.) Fight scenes. These were neat.
2.) Rorschach. The only truly moral character in the entire movie.

That was fast.

DISLIKES:

1.) The fact that these random people inexplicably were super-human was a huge plot-chasm for me. There was no hint as to what made these characters so much stronger or faster than Joe Blow. Here, I'd like to cite V for Vendetta and Batman Begins/The Dark Knight. In both V and BB/TDK, there is an explanation as to WHY these fellows became so powerful. The only character with any ATTEMPT at explanation is Dr. Manhatten, and that's so far fetched it's beyond silly. Most of the X-Men have more believable powers than this guy. But at least an ATTEMPT was made. I would be willing to look over the sillyness of Dr. M's origin if everyone had one, but since it's their only attempt at a cause, it definitely does NOT do the job.

2.) Dr. Manhatten was weird. Just... weird. Really did nothing for me whatsoever. I suppose he was there to illustrate the unpredictable nature of human beings...? He fell flat as a "hero" as well. Fortunately there's a legion of characters in this movie that do, so he won't be alone. Even on Mars. Speaking of which, WTF? Really, WTF? Why build that giant ridiculous contraption when you can teleport around? Just totally senseless.

3.) This movie takes the "what" or the Cold War and ignores the "why." This is like looking like at stage 8 of a 10-stage disaster and ignoring stages 1-7. Of course this certainly fits the pattern of not explaining how things came to be the way they are... i.e., every character besides Dr. M. It's never even considered that either side may be morally superior to the other- that the United States stands for individual freedom, and the USSR stands for the collective. The ideals behind communism and capitalism are never even suggested. The movie just takes a state of war and makes it arbitrary. Shame on them, making something as catastrophic as war completely insignificant. I was embarrassed. A 7th grader should be embarrassed.

4.) The "solution" in this movie it not a solution, it is an EVASION. They stopped nuclear was, HUZZAH! But we have no idea why there even was the hint of nuclear war in the first place. Of course that doesn't matter, because the solution was to distract all parties involved. Distraction is not a solution. If the world ever figured out what actually happened, they'd end up in the very same state they were in before. Absolutely disgusted with the whole premise, here. Talk about a band-aid solution. If the Watchmen were trying to fix a slice, they'd definitely say, "aim left." And then when Rorschach suggested trying to fix the swing, Dr. Manhatten would kill him.

5.) Morality is entirely absent except for one "lunatic." Yes, Rorschach, the only one who refuses to compromise his principles, and who is also homeless, and clinically insane, is the only moral character in the story. The dweeby fellow makes attempts, but he does not have the heart to actually stand up and accept the consequences of really BEING a hero. Compare this to Batman, where his code of morality is QUITE clear (though also slightly incorrect, IMO) and V, where his purpose is EXTREMELY clear, and honest. The heroes in this story are just roided up moral wannabes, or worse.

6.) It's too crappy to be so long. The Dark Knight is pretty long, but it's so good that you never notice. Even Lord of the Rings, which I didn't really like, was reasonably good enough to be so long. Braveheart is longer than Watchmen, and I love Braveheart- not to mention that Braveheart is a vastly more complete movie. I mean, if I was going to make a movie with an awful plot that made barely a nod toward really tackling any societal issues, I could do it in about 10 minutes. 8 minutes of fight scenes, and 2 minutes of nonsense, instead of 155 minutes of nonsense.

I really left the theater shocked that it was so bad. It felt to me like a child had written it using a few random bits of reality that he got by skimming through the chapter titles in his history textbook. Nothing makes sense, nothing is explained, and nothing is solved. This movie is a disconnected sequence of events that amounts to being so memorably bad that it's worse than forgettable.

 

[zaphod]

From your post I will post some impressions

1) You did not experience the Cold War and it's Visceral effects
2) You have not read the graphic novel. If you are confused perhaps the reading will fill in the blanks. Personally I would have been happier with a series of movies as character development and back stories are the most powerful element of the story. BTW the Graphic Novel has a alternate ending.
3) Rather then me responding to the lengthy post with another hugely lengthy post please Google The Watchmen (the graphic novel) for a serious discussion of the plot. You can take THE WATCHMEN as a college lit course. I believe some of your points will be answered. The greatest fear of the followers was the movie was going to leave some people confounded. I plan on reading V for Vendetta for the same reasoning.
4) You must suspended your reality to step into The Alternate World. If you are resistant the experience WILL NOT BE GOOD.
5) Rorschach is certainly a major character. Sees issues in a Black and White with tones thereof none existent. I get the feeling this is more to your liking.
6) As for the costumed heroes. Think of them as a projection of how normal people would dream of being perceived. Not as others perceive them. Example - Nite Owl II is impotent as normal human but as a costumed hero (without superhuman powers) a vibrant doer.
7) What do you say about Ozymandias. His perception of being the smartest and wisest human. His hubris gives rise to an empire yet leads where?
8) The absence of the Black Freighter (comic within a comic ) disappointed me. Read the GN. One school of thought is The Watchmen story is simply a projected story of the young lad reading the Black Freighter at the newsstand. The young lad with implied limited means imagines the entire story.
9) GN has extensive back stories. The psychiatrist who interviews Rorschach has an interesting back story. Same with the news vendor. As with the Editor of the New Frontier.
10) Because of the general public's knowledge of Batman the side stories are understood. The public's lack of knowledge of The Watchmen certainly puts the director at a disadvantage. Caught between telling the story to the cultist and telling the story to a fresh viewer.
11) The same thing for V for Vendetta (#10) could be said. A love hate viewer relationship. Confusion driven. V is a more compact therefore easier to put on screen but still confounded many. BTW one of my all time favs. I'm considering a V for Vendetta mannequin in front yard once I get past the Wife acceptance factor-- WAF.
12) The point that the costumed heroes (except for Rorschach) show inconsistent moral action is the very conceptMoore wants to portray. Nihilism and humanity meet. In my life experience I can not point out a real person whose has remained true to his/her proposed morals.
13)The point that Ozymandias's Nuclear solution was simply a band aid was Moore's intent. Check out the kid reporter's Catchup stained smiley face tee shirt at the end of the movie. Remember at the beginning when Rorschach picks up The Comedian's bloodied button. It a circular adventure.

If you get a chance to read the GN I would like to read your impressions of both GN and screen version. To tell the truth I wish I had seen tghe movie first then read the GN. The first reading would have been a much richer experience.

Did you answer my "uneducated" comment or would you prefer to let that one rest. Creationism post.

BTW outstanding effort texting your post. I type on a computer keyboard with a lisp. I am humbled.

 

[SilverUberXeno]

I don't know why someone would make such a metaphorical representation of... exactly how the world is. Why bother? I'd rather see what the world COULD be, and SHOULD be, and how people can work toward that goal. V was a hero, Batman is a hero, the Watchmen are business as usual. There's nothing to be learned. It's 3 hours of "People are shit."

I don't think the public knowledge of Batman was assumed in Batman Begins at all. They completely covered the backstory there.

You may be right that Watchmen is just so vast that trying to make it into a single movie was a lost cause. I imagine that any movie trying to convey Atlas Shrugged would fall to similar failure.

As per the "uneducated" comment, I meant a specific discipline. Like someone never having educated themselves on biology, or physics, etc. Certainly wasn't implying anyone was devoid of knowledge- though I understand how it came off that way. I meant that people who can't comprehend the matter/energy relationship just lack that knowledge- they are uneducated in that discipline.

 

[JEFF4i]

In turn, I will also respond, with correspondence to your points...

1)I'll give you that, but c'mon, there's always crazy explanations most unbelievable, who cares about any more?
2)Mars was symbolic of a planet that was devoid of everything except existence. That was the whole thing, Mars was without life, was simply there. But it was there, and didn't need life.
3)Wars are insignificant. They exist, they always have, they always will. Who cares about who says who is right and wrong, this movie/graphic novel were going past that.
4)Its a spoof on the solution, that's the whole point. That's what made Rorshack so great, he was actually the most moral, because he saw there solution was far from decent.
5) Yes, the one moral person was a lunatic. See the humor there? I'm guessing not.
6) I didn't care that it was long.

Honestly dude, you see this world so basic, and if you don't, your posts convey that you do. Almost the whole entire premise of this movie, and the graphic novel to a point (having recently read it, must suggest it), it to make a play on everything we think is "right." From what a hero is, to what moral is, to what life is. You gotta look at the world from another viewpoint different from your own. "Right" doesn't exist chap, which is partially what this movie gets at, but you seem to believe that "right" and truth do exist, which again, they really don't. Again, your posts only convey this.

 

[zaphod]

Honestly dude, you see this world so basic, and if you don't, your posts convey that you do. Almost the whole entire premise of this movie, and the graphic novel to a point (having recently read it, must suggest it), it to make a play on everything we think is "right." From what a hero is, to what moral is, to what life is. You gotta look at the world from another viewpoint different from your own. "Right" doesn't exist chap, which is partially what this movie gets at, but you seem to believe that "right" and truth do exist, which again, they really don't. Again, your posts only convey this.

This is why The Tales of The Black Freighter is such a in integral part of the graphic novel. Omitted in the Movie. Reality is challenged. Morality questioned from numerous angles. What a hero is? (I missed that one Jeff) So many choices are presented in the novel. And the reader is allowed to identify with his choice. Awesome!!!! The story is woven through so many eyes. Rorschach with his insanity creates a perfect backdrop for the exploration of the issues.
The definition of insanity is itself questioned. This is why is has been heralded as one of the top 20 NOVELS written in the 20th Century. A Graphic novel!!!!.

Perhaps this is a case where reading the book is a necessary part of the experience.

 

[zaphod]

I don't know why someone would make such a metaphorical representation of... exactly how the world is. Why bother? I'd rather see what the world COULD be, and SHOULD be, and how people can work toward that goal. V was a hero, Batman is a hero, the Watchmen are business as usual. There's nothing to be learned. It's 3 hours of "People are shit."

The difference between TDK and V is we are brought to a viable conclusion. Life as demonstrated in TWM does not conclude into tidy palatable morsel.

I don't think the public knowledge of Batman was assumed in Batman Begins at all. They completely covered the backstory there.

I'm a huge Graphic Novel. I knew Batman's back story many years ago. I've just learned about TWM

You may be right that Watchmen is just so vast that trying to make it into a single movie was a lost cause. I imagine that any movie trying to convey Atlas Shrugged would fall to similar failure.

As per the "uneducated" comment, I meant a specific discipline. Like someone never having educated themselves on biology, or physics, etc. Certainly wasn't implying anyone was devoid of knowledge- though I understand how it came off that way. I meant that people who can't comprehend the matter/energy relationship just lack that knowledge- they are uneducated in that discipline.

I made living as a researcher in Medical Technology---chemistry to be specific. I specialized in both afore mentioned disciplines, Biology and Physics. I comprehend matter/energy relationships. As a matter of a fact I enjoy recreational study of them. E=mc2 is elementary despite the previous administration's efforts. Hawkings is ever so cool. An agnostic Carl Sagan too. Yet I can perceive the probability of a God.

We humans are a diverse and complex breed. Free will makes us so. I am comfortable in understanding your point of view. Are you comfortable with the same?

BTW In Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (thus the Zaphod character) the most powerful weapon in the Universe was the POINT OF VIEW gun. You shoot someone and they understand your POV.

 

[LyleG]

My wife and I went to see the Watchmen on Friday and walked out half way through. First time we have ever done that. Worst movie I have seen in a very long time.

 

[The master]

My wife and I went to see the Watchmen on Friday and walked out half way through. First time we have ever done that. Worst movie I have seen in a very long time.

HAHA I did exact same, first time ever as well. I couldn't believe how bad a movie it was, well for the 45 minutes or so I saw of it.

 

[floggerrushmd]

So liking the watchmen seemed to come down to two basic ideas for most of the people that I have heard that say they enjoyed it.

1. They read the GN before, and thus understood the backstories
2. They enjoyed the GN

I fit into the first category. I do not in the second. I thought the GN was a jumble of ideas pulled off of the floor to make a deadline. It didn't make a coherent story to me, and I didn't enjoy reading it. That being said, I didn't enjoy the movie either, but it was an excellent adaptation of the GN. I just thought that it was one story that should have remained an off the main path GN and out of the mainstream.

 

[warbirdlover]

Worst movie I ever saw. Had no clue what was going on.

 

[zaphod]

Do to popular demand I will retire my opinion that this is a "must see" movie.

Sorry for encouraging those who spent hard earned $ and did not enjoy the movie.

I guess sometimes I'm an outlier in the world of Statistics. Not uncommon for me. Sometimes good sometimes bad.

Cheers

 

[warbirdlover]

I didn't go based on your recommendation zaphod. The wife made me on our anniversary as it seemed like the best movie playing at the Marcus theater. And she hated it too!! Too deep for us I guess...

 

[zaphod]

I didn't go based on your recommendation zaphod. The wife made me on our anniversary as it seemed like the best movie playing at the Marcus theater. And she hated it too!! Too deep for us I guess...

I would not sell yourself short my friend. Reflecting on it I would recommend those unfamiliar with the plot and unable to dedicate the time to read the GN to Wikipedia "The Watchmen". Wiki presents an excellent overview of the Novel. I now understand the confusion and unpalatibility of the movie to some.

The movie itself present items I missed reading the GN. The GN demands your full attention and it is easy to miss an interesting cogent plot twist. It will be a reread for me. The movie again. Nah

 

[Wi-Golfer]

I want to see it but will wait for the DVD. Have walked out on a number of movies & will do so again probably.

Nitemare Before Christmas.......absolutely horrible, at least my wife & I both so.

The Shadow...what ever Baldwin was in it, terrible movie.

There have been a few others I just can't recall which right now.

If I need a damn program to tell me what the hell is going then i'm not too interested in it. Even the last 007 movie, Quantum Of Solace was a bit of a quagmire at the theater. I leterall came home & read the Wiki synopsis of it so I could make heads or tales out of what exactly transpired. Once I did that it made a lot more sense, but my feeling is still the movie was a bit of a letdown if it required myself to do that.

 

[zaphod]

I want to see it but will wait for the DVD. Have walked out on a number of movies & will do so again probably.

Nitemare Before Christmas.......absolutely horrible, at least my wife & I both so.

The Shadow...what ever Baldwin was in it, terrible movie.

There have been a few others I just can't recall which right now.

If I need a damn program to tell me what the hell is going then i'm not too interested in it. Even the last 007 movie, Quantum Of Solace was a bit of a quagmire at the theater. I leterall came home & read the Wiki synopsis of it so I could make heads or tales out of what exactly transpired. Once I did that it made a lot more sense, but my feeling is still the movie was a bit of a letdown if it required myself to do that.

If you are not familiar with The Watchmen the experience will be the same as Quantum.