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Need to get longer off the tee

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
Thanks for the reply. It gives me a lot to think about. I think I can get a few more yards using your info. Thanks again

Dad, you are more than welcome. Let us know how you are making out. I will do the same when I am cleared to swing.
 

indacup

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2007
1,519
37
Iowa
Well, I am afraid my 2 cents worth may prove to be pretty long. So please bear with me.

First, I want to present some "cautions" before I begin recommendations...

CAUTIONS (and I KNOW I am gonna draw heat for some of this)...
Phana brought up TREMENDOUS insight and recommendations.....he speaks volumes of good common sense that should be beneficial for everyone.

My only word of warning is he provided a link to a site which appears to be associated with TGM. I am not a fan of TGM because many of those involved seem to take on some sort of "Cult" or condescending attitude where their "efforts" to assist are often nothing more than confusing half truths.

PLEASE do not put too much stock in that input. Many proponents of TGM (like Brian Mazella)seem to be ego driven, and can prove to be counter productive for most people.

The link provided, the person describes he gained 48 mph swing speed in 4 months by simple training....this is virtually impossible. Assuming he had a SS average of 90 mph, and carry of about 210 yards, he increased it to 138 (LDA level) and (with equipment adjustments needed for such increase) now getting carry distance in excess of 320 yards.

Highly doubtful.

Next area of concern is while I completely agree in conditioning, I warn not to get too obsessed associating upper body (arms)strength with propulsion.

"Muscling" the club will only slow down your swing speed...

Muscling up = tension...and tension KILLS a golf swing. Sadly, so many times I see people frustrated with their distance and try to "power" the ball further...and all that happens is the ball goes less far and now off target as well.

Here's an example...

Hold your left hand out, palm facing upwards...and place a golf tee, upside down so it is propped up, with the sharp end pointing upwards.

Now, with your right hand, make a fist and strike the tee as hard as you can and see how far it will fly off your hand.

Most likely, it will go no more than a foot and flop to the ground.

Now try it again, but this time put your middle finger of your right hand near the tip of your thumb and "flick" the tee off your palm.

Most likely, you'll hit it dead square and it will fly many feet away.

What this proves is timing and proper use of tendons are much more contributory to effective speed than brute strength (specifically upper body strength).

Current LDA champion Jamie Sadlowski, this kid is skinny and and no upper body strength, I could probably knock him down with a fart, but he pounds the ball 400 yards due to timing.

Look at Hank Kuehne. He averaged 314 yards on the PGA and had his bicep muscle in his right arm torn in an accident when he was a kid....his swing is all tendon and timing based.

Now I am not advocating to not work out....I am saying know which muscles to use....Strong legs and core are VERY important for distance and constancy. Upper strength is great, but should not be your only focus to added distance.

RECOMMENDATIONS
Taking the muscling vs tendon based swing a step further, theres a philosophy of holding the club as if holding a live bird...strong enough to hold it, but not strong enough to kill it.

I like to recommend a different approach.

You cannot afford to have the club slip in your swing...so try to grip the club securely, but concentrate on "loose wrists", as if your lower arm was connected to your hands simply with a piece of string.

Take the club back....and when done properly, once your arms have reached the end of the backswing, that momentum will allow/cause you to pivot at the "wrist strings" further.

NOW you begin your return swing...aiming the arms at the ball...knowing the hands will follow...NOW you created that "wrist lag".

EQUIPMENT/SWING
Yes, we all know fitting, PROPER fitting is paramount to maximized distance.

Without seeing your swing, like someone mentioned earlier,it DOES sound like you might be getting too much spin on your drives...and the cause could be one or more of many variables.

Unfortunately, an intelligent recommendation cannot be made without seeing your swing, or at least get more information from you.

Such as what is your swing speed? swing plane? trajectory? ball speed? What head, shaft are you using? Where on the club face do you make contact? I believe you said you were using an e6 ball...where do you live? (Climate is overlooked by WAY too many club fitters).

There are very few "Absolute" rules with club fitting...it is an individual based process.... Theres a guy on our LDA team who's swing speed tops out at 102 mph, but he can routinely drive the ball 300 yards.

We have a 5'5" female in Wisconsin who weighs at least 250 lbs, no mobility at all, but we took her off her 12* ladies driver and fitted her with an 8* head on a very stiff shaft at 46.5" long and she picked up over 30 yards and now averages 256 yards.

Bottom line is to maximize your potential, should be a team effort. You, your instructor and your fitter.
 

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
Thanks for your post Indy. I completely agree on the issue of most TGM forums. According to some of them, the Sacred Text by St. Homer of Kelly makes the Bible and Torah look like romance novels. I do not doubt the guy I cited was "expanding" his experience and credentials, but I had a couple of weeks to play with his "beginning drill" and at least appeared to see some progress. I had no launch monitor or even GPS data to back me up, just guesstimates with the laser at the range.

I really like your discussion of "loading" the wrists in transition. Very few double-digit handicappers have this move, and it is a distance killer. I believe for most golfers with established swings, it is a tough move to learn on their own (without a Casio FH-20 or something like that).

Theres a guy on our LDA team who's swing speed tops out at 102 mph, but he can routinely drive the ball 300 yards.

You now have my absolute undivided attention. Based upon everything I know and read about ball flight rules, this guy would need to be playing on a runway to get 300 routinely. What am I missing out on? I would pay to see the Trackman data for this guy.

Finally, I have a very different take on Manzella, but that is better left for another day.
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
There are very few "Absolute" rules with club fitting...it is an individual based process.... Theres a guy on our LDA team who's swing speed tops out at 102 mph, but he can routinely drive the ball 300 yards.

I would also like to know how this is possible. How can a 102 clubhead speed provide enough energy to launch the ball that far?
 

295yards

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2009
447
0
.... Theres a guy on our LDA team who's swing speed tops out at 102 mph, but he can routinely drive the ball 300 yards.
.[/QUOTE]

First I have to say, I love your input. That was well written and informative.

But 102mph clubhead speed will not produce 300yard drives and definitely not all day long.

I know you use Flightscope and from my experience this data is the furthest off for most LM's. Typically on Flightscope you can expect 10-15 yards longer off the tee, 10mph too little CHS, 15mph too little ballspeeds and to virtually never hit a drive that does not go down the middle of the fairway.

My conclusion, Flightscope sucks!
 

295yards

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2009
447
0
I am a virual golf guru by my own right.

102mph on FlightScope would translate to 110+ mph on TrackMan and 300 yard drives would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 280-285 yards.

My guess is this guys real numbers are 110mph CHS and 285yards total distance!!!
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
.... Theres a guy on our LDA team who's swing speed tops out at 102 mph, but he can routinely drive the ball 300 yards.
.

First I have to say, I love your input. That was well written and informative.

But 102mph clubhead speed will not produce 300yard drives and definitely not all day long.

I know you use Flightscope and from my experience this data is the furthest off for most LM's. Typically on Flightscope you can expect 10-15 yards longer off the tee, 10mph too little CHS, 15mph too little ballspeeds and to virtually never hit a drive that does not go down the middle of the fairway.

My conclusion, Flightscope sucks![/QUOTE]

I am a virual golf guru by my own right.

102mph on FlightScope would translate to 110+ mph on TrackMan and 300 yard drives would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 280-285 yards.

My guess is this guys real numbers are 110mph CHS and 285yards total distance!!!


this is interesting, i will pay more attention to comparing the two at the pga show this year
 

indacup

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2007
1,519
37
Iowa
Actually, we do not use a FlightScope...I think you might have us confused with Pat Dempsey who uses a FS at his Pacoima facility. We use the Zelocity Doppler Pure Launch systems that incorporate Ball Velocity, Club Head Speed, Carry/Total Distance, Power Transfer Ratio %, Launch Angle, Total Spin, Deviation, Angle of Descent, Angle of Approach, Side Spin, Club Face Angle, Tempo, Azimuth, Swing Path, Dynamic Loft, Shot Type, Trajectory Graphics, Club Acceleration and Deceleration, Database and Reports.

Regardless, these numbers we've aquired on him, and him alone on various types of equipment.....so we've removed all variables, and it is him, not equipment related

I took a cursory look for some data we pulled in last years Milwaukee golf show, but cannot find it. We actually took photos of some of the results because it is too hard to believe. I will try to get it and post it here (like I did at a couple other forums).

However, I am sure the player himself has it (He also does clubfitting and instructions in Wisconsin). His name is Al Rohlander (I will provide you his contact info if you'd like).

I realize a swing speed around 102 should not produce those kind of drives and we even brought it to Tom Wishon about a year ago for his input....he said without actually SEEING the swing, all he had were throries...such as Al uses about the softest flex shaft vailable...we put him in R flex or softer (depending on head and club length).

Regardless, I am going to dig up that data/photos and get them here for you to see.....
 

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
Actually, we do not use a FlightScope...I think you might have us confused with Pat Dempsey who uses a FS at his Pacoima facility. We use the Zelocity Doppler Pure Launch systems that incorporate Ball Velocity, Club Head Speed, Carry/Total Distance, Power Transfer Ratio %, Launch Angle, Total Spin, Deviation, Angle of Descent, Angle of Approach, Side Spin, Club Face Angle, Tempo, Azimuth, Swing Path, Dynamic Loft, Shot Type, Trajectory Graphics, Club Acceleration and Deceleration, Database and Reports.

Regardless, these numbers we've aquired on him, and him alone on various types of equipment.....so we've removed all variables, and it is him, not equipment related

I took a cursory look for some data we pulled in last years Milwaukee golf show, but cannot find it. We actually took photos of some of the results because it is too hard to believe. I will try to get it and post it here (like I did at a couple other forums).

However, I am sure the player himself has it (He also does clubfitting and instructions in Wisconsin). His name is Al Rohlander (I will provide you his contact info if you'd like).

I realize a swing speed around 102 should not produce those kind of drives and we even brought it to Tom Wishon about a year ago for his input....he said without actually SEEING the swing, all he had were throries...such as Al uses about the softest flex shaft vailable...we put him in R flex or softer (depending on head and club length).

Regardless, I am going to dig up that data/photos and get them here for you to see.....

Indy, I am not questioning your veracity. It is simply that given everything I know (which is admittedly modest at best) it would appear as though Mr. Rohlander is somehow violating , or I guess overachieving would be a better word, current knowledge of ball flight laws. I recognize that Tom Wishon is one of THE elite names in club design/ball flight. The fact that you called on him suggests to me you were as ssurprised as anyone. If I read your post correctly, what TW was postulating is that Al had a fairly unique swing and tempo that permits him to use a soft R, which presumably generates more clubhead speed. I believe that because of USGA regs the smash or efficiency factor is maxed out at 1.5, therefore Al almost has be getting more than 102 mph delivered to that ball. I say that because my understanding is his max ball speed (allow 2% error on LM for 104 mph, and high end of COR .8349 for 1.52 smash) should be 158. My average ball speed with standard driver is 159, and with my bomber 166 and I only see 300 with a very generous tailwind or hard fairway, with 265-270 being an average with standard driver. What I am wondering is if we could reword 295yds suggestion that the monitor was incorrect to "the monitor reads the clubhead speed incorrectly for HIS swing," as perhaps he gets his max speed later than most golfers? As I understand ball flight, the only other possible explanation would be an extremely unique launch angle/spin rate/ descent angle that could possibly get the 272 carry + 10% roll needed for 300. Or did he buy "The Secrets of 30 More Yards" on the Internet for three easy payment of $39.95 :) If so I want that link and I want it NOW!!!! Thanks for the info.
 

eclark53520

DB Member Extraordinaire
Supporting Member
Dec 24, 2007
17,476
7,554
South Central Wisconsin
Country
United States United States
I want to add that indacup speaks the truth about this guy.

I was on the same exact launch monitor right before this guy and was getting numbers below the numbers i got the month before at a different launch monitor but they were correct numbers for me(crappy..lol). This guy gets on and with lower swing speeds, was driving the ball much further than i every time he hit the ball. Every single time, this wasn't a every now and then he would smoke one.

I saw it with my own eyes and there was no fishiness about it. No one touched the launch monitor between me and him.
 

indacup

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2007
1,519
37
Iowa
Indy, I am not questioning your veracity. It is simply that given everything I know (which is admittedly modest at best) it would appear as though Mr. Rohlander is somehow violating , or I guess overachieving would be a better word, current knowledge of ball flight laws. I recognize that Tom Wishon is one of THE elite names in club design/ball flight. The fact that you called on him suggests to me you were as ssurprised as anyone. If I read your post correctly, what TW was postulating is that Al had a fairly unique swing and tempo that permits him to use a soft R, which presumably generates more clubhead speed. I believe that because of USGA regs the smash or efficiency factor is maxed out at 1.5, therefore Al almost has be getting more than 102 mph delivered to that ball. I say that because my understanding is his max ball speed (allow 2% error on LM for 104 mph, and high end of COR .8349 for 1.52 smash) should be 158. My average ball speed with standard driver is 159, and with my bomber 166 and I only see 300 with a very generous tailwind or hard fairway, with 265-270 being an average with standard driver. What I am wondering is if we could reword 295yds suggestion that the monitor was incorrect to "the monitor reads the clubhead speed incorrectly for HIS swing," as perhaps he gets his max speed later than most golfers? As I understand ball flight, the only other possible explanation would be an extremely unique launch angle/spin rate/ descent angle that could possibly get the 272 carry + 10% roll needed for 300. Or did he buy "The Secrets of 30 More Yards" on the Internet for three easy payment of $39.95 :) If so I want that link and I want it NOW!!!! Thanks for the info.

Phana -

I did not take offense by you questioning me at all. as you stated, I cannot completely figure out exactly how he's doing it.

He has achieved these results on many different types of launch monitors (we also have a couple Vector Accusports) and out doors...so we KNOW his distances are correct.

If we put him in a stiffer flex shaft, his numbers are more "human like", and while still, impressive, no where near the magnitude of when he's using a soft flex shaft. Al also, is not a large man...he's about 6' tall, medium build, not muscular by any means.

We will be at the Milwaukee and Green Bay golf shows again in 2010...and not only do I invite you (or anyone) to come out and see this, I will be bringing my sports camera and take pics of his swing, broken down in 5 images per second...hopefull that will give me an insight as to how he does it
 

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
Phana -

I did not take offense by you questioning me at all. as you stated, I cannot completely figure out exactly how he's doing it.

He has achieved these results on many different types of launch monitors (we also have a couple Vector Accusports) and out doors...so we KNOW his distances are correct.

If we put him in a stiffer flex shaft, his numbers are more "human like", and while still, impressive, no where near the magnitude of when he's using a soft flex shaft. Al also, is not a large man...he's about 6' tall, medium build, not muscular by any means.

We will be at the Milwaukee and Green Bay golf shows again in 2010...and not only do I invite you (or anyone) to come out and see this, I will be bringing my sports camera and take pics of his swing, broken down in 5 images per second...hopefull that will give me an insight as to how he does it


Indy, beg, borrow, or use one of EC's guns and get that guy on a Trackman, I would love to send them in and to see Fredrik Tuxen explain those numbers. Just to clarify one detail we have all ignored, we are assuming our friend Al can keep his ball in the same county most of the time.
 

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
Sounds like I'ma get me a chick shaft


I once stated that if a driver gave me either more distance with the same accuracy or the same distance with more accuracy, I would play an Annika Sorenstam Model K-Mart Special with a lace shaft, and would think nothing of dropping $500 for 5% more of either option. When it comes to golf, I have zero dignity.
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
Next area of concern is while I completely agree in conditioning, I warn not to get too obsessed associating upper body (arms)strength with propulsion.

"Muscling" the club will only slow down your swing speed...

Muscling up = tension...and tension KILLS a golf swing. Sadly, so many times I see people frustrated with their distance and try to "power" the ball further...and all that happens is the ball goes less far and now off target as well.

Here's an example...

Hold your left hand out, palm facing upwards...and place a golf tee, upside down so it is propped up, with the sharp end pointing upwards.

Now, with your right hand, make a fist and strike the tee as hard as you can and see how far it will fly off your hand.

Most likely, it will go no more than a foot and flop to the ground.

Now try it again, but this time put your middle finger of your right hand near the tip of your thumb and "flick" the tee off your palm.

Most likely, you'll hit it dead square and it will fly many feet away.

What this proves is timing and proper use of tendons are much more contributory to effective speed than brute strength (specifically upper body strength).

Current LDA champion Jamie Sadlowski, this kid is skinny and and no upper body strength, I could probably knock him down with a fart, but he pounds the ball 400 yards due to timing.

Look at Hank Kuehne. He averaged 314 yards on the PGA and had his bicep muscle in his right arm torn in an accident when he was a kid....his swing is all tendon and timing based.

Now I am not advocating to not work out....I am saying know which muscles to use....Strong legs and core are VERY important for distance and constancy. Upper strength is great, but should not be your only focus to added distance.

Indacup,

I must respectfully disagree with your statements above, nothing personal - its the common belief. but as i did put on 50+ pounds of FUNCTIONAL muscle on my frame over the course of the past few years I did increase my distances to stupid crazy numbers relative to where i was before.

The statements above are the exact theory i set out to quantify. was it true or just a myth that adding MUSCLE is detrimental to a golfers swing? no one had put on 20,30,40lbs + of functional muscle. so i did and heres the conclusion - E still equals mc squared!

if i punch you at my former weight of 128lbs your going to beat the shit out of me. if i punch you at 190lbs we might have a little dance, but if i punch you at 250lbs your not getting up.

the more functional muscle one has on their frame the more power can be used with less effort. weakness or lack of strength actually CAUSES more tension because they have to operate at or near redline to create power. powerful fit muscles operating at less than maximum effort can create wonderfully controlled shots with much less effort.

I've caddy'd for Hank Kuehne, he is one big strong dude with plenty of lean body mass on his frame, i wouldnt want to get hit by him, and though i havent met Jamie, he doesnt have bodybuilder muscle, but he too is packing a lot of functional muscle for his frame with little body fat %

also as a side note tidbit - the body must be built symmetrically - every bodypart must be given the appropriate amount of attention to build everything not just a piece of the body. typical "golf fitness" overdevelops your "golf muscles" CREATING imbalances and ruins your swing reflex. there are no such things as golf muscles, you just have muscles that all must be developed in symmetry so as not to disturb the overall swinging motion.

i'm digging this discussion -

Best
Michael
 

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