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Need to get longer off the tee

indacup

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2007
1,519
37
Iowa
I do not want to beat this up, but you never mentioned his ballspeed numbers!

I asked him and Tim Chop for printouts I can post here so I can SHOW as opposed to "relay"

Tim responded to me with:
Al probably has that...if not, he can do it again I'm sure...I saw it again last week...268 carry at 98 mph swing speed and 285 at 102 or something like that

try him at: customclubconnection@wi.rr.com

or his cel

So I asked Al and he responded yesterday with:
Hi man what's up, I had some on my phone but they got deleted I'll check my
computer and get back to you.

As soon as I get actual numbers, I'll post them here for y'all!
 

295yards

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2009
447
0
Cool.

I am somewhat of a nerd when it comes to numbers.

Am interested in hearing the outcome!
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
Rory, this really intrigues me. Do you know what shaft/head combo he's playing? I'd be willing to try a more noodley shaft (partly because I am hungry) , but should I get a lower loft head to compensate? I have another 9.5 GRT here that has a Harrison Striper in it that I don't use, as well as a NP-1 460 at 8.5*.
 

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
Rory, this really intrigues me. Do you know what shaft/head combo he's playing? I'd be willing to try a more noodley shaft (partly because I am hungry) , but should I get a lower loft head to compensate? I have another 9.5 GRT here that has a Harrison Striper in it that I don't use, as well as a NP-1 460 at 8.5*.

I have a very strong suspicion that a lot of people are checking out this topic waiting for those numbers. Once posted, I forecast at least a few dozen new head/shaft combos will be assembled, and the nearest Trackman will see some additional use.
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
It seems mathematically unfathomable. Clubhead speed of 102 just doesn't do this. Clubhead speed is a result of everything he's doing personally; whatever technique or timing he has is producing THAT number. If would be more believable that he's some old out of shape guy who, by some miraculous technique or skill, can produce a clubhead speed of 118 with minimal effort. But if the END RESULT is the clubhead moving at 102mph... I really don't get it.
 

indacup

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2007
1,519
37
Iowa
Rory, this really intrigues me. Do you know what shaft/head combo he's playing? I'd be willing to try a more noodley shaft (partly because I am hungry) , but should I get a lower loft head to compensate? I have another 9.5 GRT here that has a Harrison Striper in it that I don't use, as well as a NP-1 460 at 8.5*.

I would LOVE to tell you that it is by only using a specific head/shaft combo that you have to buy from me....

But I've known him for about 6 years and seem him do it with a variety of different heads and shafts...one thing remains constant with him, is that he uses a very soft flex shaft...
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
But that soft flex shaft is a component of the clubhead speed. It's not like we're applying 102mph TO a soft flex shaft. The soft flex shaft is a contributing factor. The speed is the final measure of the efficiency of that swing, and there is just no way that I've ever seen that would allow a 102mph clubhead to impart enough energy into a golf ball to make it go 285 yards.

I'm totally open minded here; I would love to find out what's going on. But I feel like we're all missing something here. Maybe it's a series of major typos and that 102 was always supposed to be 120. The soft flex shaft can certainly increase clubhead speed, but it's only increasing it to 102!
 

indacup

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2007
1,519
37
Iowa
But that soft flex shaft is a component of the clubhead speed. It's not like we're applying 102mph TO a soft flex shaft. The soft flex shaft is a contributing factor. The speed is the final measure of the efficiency of that swing, and there is just no way that I've ever seen that would allow a 102mph clubhead to impart enough energy into a golf ball to make it go 285 yards.

I'm totally open minded here; I would love to find out what's going on. But I feel like we're all missing something here. Maybe it's a series of major typos and that 102 was always supposed to be 120. The soft flex shaft can certainly increase clubhead speed, but it's only increasing it to 102!

understand your apprehension...trust me, I didn't believe it either...but he shows this ability off at all the golf shows we have a booth at...eclark saw this first hand at last years Milwaukee or Green Bay show:

I want to add that indacup speaks the truth about this guy.

I was on the same exact launch monitor right before this guy and was getting numbers below the numbers i got the month before at a different launch monitor but they were correct numbers for me(crappy..lol). This guy gets on and with lower swing speeds, was driving the ball much further than i every time he hit the ball. Every single time, this wasn't a every now and then he would smoke one.

I saw it with my own eyes and there was no fishiness about it. No one touched the launch monitor between me and him.

I realize it defies physics, but seeing IS believing...I wish I had a good, viable answer as to how he does this...I don't believe he knows how he does it either.
 

cheymike

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
22
0
*whew* long read but FUN! I've developed a theory on how his swing might do this. He's playing a soft flex shaft... keep that in mind. Not knowing exactly WHERE in a swing a monitor measures the swing speed, lets assume it measures it right before ball impact. At that point.. its 102. Now, consider this.... in HIS swing, the shaft is at that point flexed about as far as it will go. With the proper timing, which obviously this guy has got naturally, his wrists release the clubhead thru the ball at EXACTLY at impact. BAM... maximum flex energy of the shaft is released and he gets an extra OOMPH out of the shaft that John Q Normal guy doesn't make the most of with his "average" swing. That perfectly timed shaft flex release would account for quite a bit of energy and extra distance at impact. *shrugs* dunno if its a good theory, but its mine. LOL!!
 

295yards

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2009
447
0
It seems mathematically unfathomable. Clubhead speed of 102 just doesn't do this. Clubhead speed is a result of everything he's doing personally; whatever technique or timing he has is producing THAT number. If would be more believable that he's some old out of shape guy who, by some miraculous technique or skill, can produce a clubhead speed of 118 with minimal effort. But if the END RESULT is the clubhead moving at 102mph... I really don't get it.

This totally killing me!

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the CHS is measured from the start of the backswing to impact which would definitely produce incorrect numbers; since CHS should only be measured in the impact zone.

I personally have hit 30 balls on TrackMan with my hand held SSRwTT down to compare the LM data and that of my unit.

I don't have the avg's for my unit but over the 30 drives recorded on TrackMan I registered 167mph ballspeed with 108mph clubspeed and an avg smashfactor of 1.54 even though I was not absolutely flushing anything.

On my unit not one swing was under 113mph and I can only estimate but I'd guess my avg. CHS was probably around 116mph which would equate to a smashfactor of 1.44, which by feel off the club made way more sense to me.

FWIW. Even with my 167mph ballspeed numbers it was hard to roll out anything past 300yards and there is no way 102mph CHS would produce anything even remotely close to that.

My guess is he is producing clubhead speeds in excess of 110mph and ballspeeds over 160mph with good launch numbers!
 

295yards

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2009
447
0
*whew* long read but FUN! I've developed a theory on how his swing might do this. He's playing a soft flex shaft... keep that in mind. Not knowing exactly WHERE in a swing a monitor measures the swing speed, lets assume it measures it right before ball impact. At that point.. its 102. Now, consider this.... in HIS swing, the shaft is at that point flexed about as far as it will go. With the proper timing, which obviously this guy has got naturally, his wrists release the clubhead thru the ball at EXACTLY at impact. BAM... maximum flex energy of the shaft is released and he gets an extra OOMPH out of the shaft that John Q Normal guy doesn't make the most of with his "average" swing. That perfectly timed shaft flex release would account for quite a bit of energy and extra distance at impact. *shrugs* dunno if its a good theory, but its mine. LOL!!

Thats a great theory! And I think it closely relates to what I believe.

Assuming CHS is an actual measurement of CHS in mph the measurement itself is totally dependant on the distance the swing is measured over.

If it is only measured over 1" through impact or from when you carry it from your car to set up you would get two totally different CHS numbers.

Assuming it does not measure starting all the way back from getting it out of the car it is entirely possible it may be measuring from start of backswing to impact which would make any smashfactor numbers irrelevant.

It's all about ballspeed numbers!
 

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
It seems mathematically unfathomable. Clubhead speed of 102 just doesn't do this. Clubhead speed is a result of everything he's doing personally; whatever technique or timing he has is producing THAT number. If would be more believable that he's some old out of shape guy who, by some miraculous technique or skill, can produce a clubhead speed of 118 with minimal effort. But if the END RESULT is the clubhead moving at 102mph... I really don't get it.

I think 295 was onto something. Since monitors use doppler radar to calculate speed, let us assume that it is measuring it slightly in advance of where the max speed actually occurs. Since a Trackman costs 31K, and an AMM system will run over 50, let us also guess that they have more sophisticated systems, and may get a more accurate reading milliseconds before impact. That might explain what we are seeing. I think everyone involved agrees with you that the physics we know (assuming it is correct) cannot explain this dude. However, if you look at Rory's posts on this and other subjects, the guy knows his stuff, and what possible motive could a clubfitter have for posting bs? All it would do is ruin his credibility. We need Trackman numbers on this guy and if Trackman gives us the same info, Fredrik Tuxen has a lot of explaining to do.
 

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
This totally killing me!

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the CHS is measured from the start of the backswing to impact which would definitely produce incorrect numbers; since CHS should only be measured in the impact zone.

I personally have hit 30 balls on TrackMan with my hand held SSRwTT down to compare the LM data and that of my unit.

I don't have the avg's for my unit but over the 30 drives recorded on TrackMan I registered 167mph ballspeed with 108mph clubspeed and an avg smashfactor of 1.54 even though I was not absolutely flushing anything.

On my unit not one swing was under 113mph and I can only estimate but I'd guess my avg. CHS was probably around 116mph which would equate to a smashfactor of 1.44, which by feel off the club made way more sense to me.

FWIW. Even with my 167mph ballspeed numbers it was hard to roll out anything past 300yards and there is no way 102mph CHS would produce anything even remotely close to that.

My guess is he is producing clubhead speeds in excess of 110mph and ballspeeds over 160mph with good launch numbers!

I have seen some data that indicates Trackman can give you a slightly erroneous reading on smash factor with slight toe hits. 1.54 on the Tour would have your club in the USGA testing lab very quickly.
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
There is no doubt in my mind that Rory is speaking the truth. I'm accusing one of the numbers to be lying. Assuming Bionic Man is using a legal driver, we KNOW that these numbers can't produce these results.

So, the numbers are wrong. Period. But why?

Your theories are probably correct, and they're just about the ONLY thing that makes sense. We know the conversion of CHS to ball speed. It's unlikely that the ball speed is being measured incorrectly, and if it were beign measured at the wrong time it could only be LOWER than actual.

So, the swing speed is wroong. When that clubhead hits the ball, it's going SIGNIFICANTLY faster than 102 mph. Why the machines are reading this incorrectly, I can't say. I am not familiar with the technology.

But, this HAS to be the case. If you were faced with 2 + Y = 5, and someone told you that Y = 9, you'd say, "No, it doesn't. Try again. Your numbers are wrong. I'm sure this equation does equal 5, but Y is NOT 9."

Case closed! Nice work gentlemen :)
 

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
Did a little research, and while it has been over twenty years since Physics One and Two (God Bless Fraternity files), if I read the geek talk correctly, the driver speed is likely to be more accurate than the ball speed. The driver is much larger, more reflective, and travelling much closer to the unit. Supposedly for a Doppler phased array radar this is the ideal condition. The ball is less reflective, moving away from the unit, and since the motion is faster, has more challenge to the detection abilities of the radar. The software to calculate the distance and dispersion is obviously dependent upon the quality of the input. I honestly believe that if you could get AMM or Trackman data on our friend Al there would be some VERY SUBSTANTIAL interest if a 102 mph swing could rountinely get 285, no less 300.
 

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