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Need to get longer off the tee

indacup

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2007
1,519
37
Iowa
Indy, beg, borrow, or use one of EC's guns and get that guy on a Trackman, I would love to send them in and to see Fredrik Tuxen explain those numbers. Just to clarify one detail we have all ignored, we are assuming our friend Al can keep his ball in the same county most of the time.

Oh yeah, he's very accurate....very controlled flight
 

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
Indacup,

I must respectfully disagree with your statements above, nothing personal - its the common belief. but as i did put on 50+ pounds of FUNCTIONAL muscle on my frame over the course of the past few years I did increase my distances to stupid crazy numbers relative to where i was before.

The statements above are the exact theory i set out to quantify. was it true or just a myth that adding MUSCLE is detrimental to a golfers swing? no one had put on 20,30,40lbs + of functional muscle. so i did and heres the conclusion - E still equals mc squared!

if i punch you at my former weight of 128lbs your going to beat the shit out of me. if i punch you at 190lbs we might have a little dance, but if i punch you at 250lbs your not getting up.

the more functional muscle one has on their frame the more power can be used with less effort. weakness or lack of strength actually CAUSES more tension because they have to operate at or near redline to create power. powerful fit muscles operating at less than maximum effort can create wonderfully controlled shots with much less effort.

I've caddy'd for Hank Kuehne, he is one big strong dude with plenty of lean body mass on his frame, i wouldnt want to get hit by him, and though i havent met Jamie, he doesnt have bodybuilder muscle, but he too is packing a lot of functional muscle for his frame with little body fat %

also as a side note tidbit - the body must be built symmetrically - every bodypart must be given the appropriate amount of attention to build everything not just a piece of the body. typical "golf fitness" overdevelops your "golf muscles" CREATING imbalances and ruins your swing reflex. there are no such things as golf muscles, you just have muscles that all must be developed in symmetry so as not to disturb the overall swinging motion.

i'm digging this discussion -

Best
Michael

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that "creating" energy is wonderful, but as you alluded to elsewhere discussing tension, it is usless if said energy is not properly transmitted to the ball. The OP and I are looking for modest returns (10-15%), and searching for an efficient way to achieve that. I will be reading your book soon, right now Mrs. Phana has a very close watch on my Internet cc, as I have been a bad boy recently. However, that is one of the reasons that a swing-based program, at least to begin, is very appealing to me.

I do see how your approach would blend in and become an integral part of a program for someone already at a very high level, or getting close to max efficiency from their existing ability. As to the details, I suspect it will require the book to ascertain. Unfortunately, I suspect it will conform that there are no thirty extra yards for three easy payments.....lol. :unhappy:
 

indacup

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2007
1,519
37
Iowa
Michael,

We're "somewhat" on the same thought process...Please bear in mind I said people should not be "OBSESSED" with "UPPER ARM" strength and associate it with propulsion.....In other words, the bigger your biceps will not necessarily result in longer drives....and when I said muscling it, I believe almost everyone knows what I mean. Which is when you try to muscle the club faster, it usually results in the person gripping tighter...the added tighntness of the grip, will usually result in a chain reaction of limited mobility.

Is it the MUSCLES causing the reduction? No, it's the person CONTROLLING the muscles...inadvertantly making the muscles slow down the swing.

It's like when I raced motorcycles competitively for 12 years..

Motocross at one time was called the 2nd most physically exerting sport on the planet (according to study done by Queens University, Belfast) and physical fitness was paramount for stamina...but if we tensed up those muscles it slowed down reaction time and then when you knew a crash was imminent, you knew you HAD to "relax" and not fight it...tensing up at impact would cause more damage than "limp" impact.

Over the last few years, due to a series of injuries and stagnant lifestyle I gained a lot of weight.....last year I started working out with a trainer and lost about 50lbs of fat and gained about 22 in muscle.....and the difference on the course has been evident.

While at first, and still occasionally to this date, I had to rediscover my mechanics, I have definitly seen added increase in distances again...not because of upper arm strength, but I'd say more due to strong core and legs....especially the core. It has actually proven for me to be difficult to "try less" these days.

When I try to swing hard, using my muscles, the swing speed suffers...and dramatically...when I do exactly as I mentioned earlier, allowing the tendons to dominate the swing, it is much more fluid and demonstratively faster.

So, I agree with you that overall conditioning is without a doubt imperative for the serious golfer...but to concentrate on big biceps, in hopes of added distance, will not be the answer....which I believe you concur with.

The little white ball doesn't care how much you can bench press or how much ya can curl.

Again, I need to go back to my earlier analogy...you can flick the golf tee off your hand with the tendons of your middle finger, much further than striking it with a clenched fist,using all your arm strength.
 

thekid65

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2009
406
0
When you tee the ball up, use one of those really long tees. Lean it as far forward as you can towards the target and the ball stay on the tee.



You should gain about an inch to a inch and half of distance that way! :laugh:


OK, I'm definitely gonna try that (when the snow melts) but I tellya, if I miss my approach shot 1 1/2" too long, I'm gonna be pissed!
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
Michael,

We're "somewhat" on the same thought process...Please bear in mind I said people should not be "OBSESSED" with "UPPER ARM" strength and associate it with propulsion.....In other words, the bigger your biceps will not necessarily result in longer drives....and when I said muscling it, I believe almost everyone knows what I mean. Which is when you try to muscle the club faster, it usually results in the person gripping tighter...the added tighntness of the grip, will usually result in a chain reaction of limited mobility.
yes i see where we're on the same page in principle - one benefits much greater from total body workouts than golf workouts or partial body workouts - everything must be built symmetrically

as far as muscling the club, i'll go to what i wrote earlier :

the more functional muscle one has on their frame the more power can be used with less effort. weakness or lack of strength actually CAUSES more tension because they have to operate at or near redline to create power. powerful fit muscles operating at less than maximum effort can create wonderfully controlled shots with much less effort.

Is it the MUSCLES causing the reduction? No, it's the person CONTROLLING the muscles...inadvertantly making the muscles slow down the swing.

It's like when I raced motorcycles competitively for 12 years..

Motocross at one time was called the 2nd most physically exerting sport on the planet (according to study done by Queens University, Belfast) and physical fitness was paramount for stamina...but if we tensed up those muscles it slowed down reaction time and then when you knew a crash was imminent, you knew you HAD to "relax" and not fight it...tensing up at impact would cause more damage than "limp" impact.

your using a great analogy here - i would add that the stronger one was, the less energy one require to control the bike.

The benefits of strength is that the more you strength one builds the less energy you need to use to move the same weight.

Im still a very firm believer that being weak causes one to swing harder than required - throwing all out of whack.

Over the last few years, due to a series of injuries and stagnant lifestyle I gained a lot of weight.....last year I started working out with a trainer and lost about 50lbs of fat and gained about 22 in muscle.....and the difference on the course has been evident.

While at first, and still occasionally to this date, I had to rediscover my mechanics, I have definitly seen added increase in distances again...not because of upper arm strength, but I'd say more due to strong core and legs....especially the core. It has actually proven for me to be difficult to "try less" these days.

When I try to swing hard, using my muscles, the swing speed suffers...and dramatically...when I do exactly as I mentioned earlier, allowing the tendons to dominate the swing, it is much more fluid and demonstratively faster.

So, I agree with you that overall conditioning is without a doubt imperative for the serious golfer...but to concentrate on big biceps, in hopes of added distance, will not be the answer....which I believe you concur with.
i do indeed - concentrating on one thing will throw the others out of balance. both functionally and aesthetically.

I will say though i didnt build all this muscle to just use my tendons j/k lol

The little white ball doesn't care how much you can bench press or how much ya can curl.

Again, I need to go back to my earlier analogy...you can flick the golf tee off your hand with the tendons of your middle finger, much further than striking it with a clenched fist,using all your arm strength.

Your analogy is slightly comparing apples to oranges. the golf swing is a leverage action, similar to your flicking the tee (there is a build up of energy followed by a release of it). striking a tee with a clenched fist does not implore the same leverage action.

take hammering a nail. most people can do it onplane, with a lagging shaft, and seeking an inline condition - given those 3 variables dont change, take 2 people one weak / one strong - have them move the same weighted hammer into the nail, the one who is stronger will have to use less energy to create the same amount of force.

also the one with more muscles wont be damaging their tendons and ligaments due to over use - thats where you get the tennis elbows. functionally fit muscles can protect those tendons.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that "creating" energy is wonderful, but as you alluded to elsewhere discussing tension, it is usless if said energy is not properly transmitted to the ball. The OP and I are looking for modest returns (10-15%), and searching for an efficient way to achieve that. I will be reading your book soon, right now Mrs. Phana has a very close watch on my Internet cc, as I have been a bad boy recently. However, that is one of the reasons that a swing-based program, at least to begin, is very appealing to me.

I do see how your approach would blend in and become an integral part of a program for someone already at a very high level, or getting close to max efficiency from their existing ability. As to the details, I suspect it will require the book to ascertain. Unfortunately, I suspect it will conform that there are no thirty extra yards for three easy payments.....lol. :unhappy:

Thanks Phana -
yes creating energy is wonderful, delivering it in the wrong direction is useless. thats why i prefer to work via a matrix that incorporates strength and golf swing together.

through my years of experience, as a general guideline i would say that 99.9% of amateur golfers could improve their distance considerably 10-25% by improving only their impact. i kept a statistic on this at my first teaching job. around 600 people creating 2800 lessons on video, only 3 people - 1 pro, and 2 amateurs had a proper impact - shaft seeking alignment with forward arm. everyone else to a person, was working the shaft inline with their trailing arm.

now add power to this alignment you have something pretty cool.

then add strength and you have something pretty cool and further.

add endurance and you have something pretty cool, further, and more often.

add discipline and you have something pretty cool, further, more often and with ruthlessness

now add focus to the mix and you have something pretty cool, further, more often with ruthlessness, and youve gained tenacity.

or you can flip thru impact and play hit and giggle on tuesday mornings with the ladies weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! i'm hot today!

also no there aren't 3 easy payments of anything - but there are increased levels of bioavailable amino acids :cool:

cheers to everyone - signing off from pinehurst nc tonight

Michael
 

indacup

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2007
1,519
37
Iowa
This has been a really good thead...I agree with Michael that added strength would require less effort to hit the ball.

Now what y need is to EDUCATE that to those who are "buff". We have at our course a few MONSTORUS members...a couple football jocks that easily weigh upper 200's... and a few farmer type guys who were ex heavyweight wrestlers and basically, VERY strong....matter of fact, one guy here finished second in the states strong man competetion....yet NONE of these guys can hit the ball over 105 mph....they believe that with the added muscle, they need to swing harder...to use those muscles to get the edge...meanwhile we have a 14 year old kid that is skinnier than a couple of my neckties and he can smoothly lace out drives of 250 with little effort.

All about knowing the swing, and as Michael said, knowing that you don't NEED to push those muscles.


Great thread!
 

Phana24JG

Phana24JG
Nov 10, 2009
93
0
yes creating energy is wonderful, delivering it in the wrong direction is useless. thats why i prefer to work via a matrix that incorporates strength and golf swing together.

through my years of experience, as a general guideline i would say that 99.9% of amateur golfers could improve their distance considerably 10-25% by improving only their impact. i kept a statistic on this at my first teaching job. around 600 people creating 2800 lessons on video, only 3 people - 1 pro, and 2 amateurs had a proper impact - shaft seeking alignment with forward arm. everyone else to a person, was working the shaft inline with their trailing arm.

also no there aren't 3 easy payments of anything - but there are increased levels of bioavailable amino acids :cool:

Michael

Mike, would not the TGM and Moe Norman crowds (often interchanged) maintain that "hitters" can have success aligning the shaft with their trailing arm? Provided that the golfer was delivering the head to the club with the shaft at least in line with the head, and without prematurely releasing the club and getting satisfactory smash factors (1.45-1.5) are they at least not close to maximizing their efficiency, or are we now in territory that really belongs in your Q&A topic?
 

295yards

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2009
447
0
Oh yeah, he's very accurate....very controlled flight

I honestly cannot state enough how I feel swingspeed numbers on LM's are incorrect.

Does anyone even know how swing speed is measured on LM's? Is it in mph over the entire backswing until impact? Or is it in mph only at impact where it really counts?

Because if it is in mph over the entire swing that'd be like getting a speeding ticket on the highway and arguing I left my house an hour ago and I've only cover 55 miles,,,so I'm really only going 55mph :)

All theories aside, what is your friends ballspeed numbers if he is hitting 300 yard drives routinely. Surley it is not 153mph!!!
 

295yards

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2009
447
0
Indacup,

I must respectfully disagree with your statements above, nothing personal - its the common belief. but as i did put on 50+ pounds of FUNCTIONAL muscle on my frame over the course of the past few years I did increase my distances to stupid crazy numbers relative to where i was before.

The statements above are the exact theory i set out to quantify. was it true or just a myth that adding MUSCLE is detrimental to a golfers swing? no one had put on 20,30,40lbs + of functional muscle. so i did and heres the conclusion - E still equals mc squared!

if i punch you at my former weight of 128lbs your going to beat the shit out of me. if i punch you at 190lbs we might have a little dance, but if i punch you at 250lbs your not getting up.

the more functional muscle one has on their frame the more power can be used with less effort. weakness or lack of strength actually CAUSES more tension because they have to operate at or near redline to create power. powerful fit muscles operating at less than maximum effort can create wonderfully controlled shots with much less effort.

I've caddy'd for Hank Kuehne, he is one big strong dude with plenty of lean body mass on his frame, i wouldnt want to get hit by him, and though i havent met Jamie, he doesnt have bodybuilder muscle, but he too is packing a lot of functional muscle for his frame with little body fat %

also as a side note tidbit - the body must be built symmetrically - every bodypart must be given the appropriate amount of attention to build everything not just a piece of the body. typical "golf fitness" overdevelops your "golf muscles" CREATING imbalances and ruins your swing reflex. there are no such things as golf muscles, you just have muscles that all must be developed in symmetry so as not to disturb the overall swinging motion.

i'm digging this discussion -

Best
Michael

I agree and disagree!

I don't think building functional muscle will ever hurt anyone. Some may argue increasing your bench press or adding even 30lbs of total muscle can litterally do NOTHING for how far you hit the ball and I agree.


I may help, it may hurt you, but specifically adding muscle in any manner is ineffiecent in that having to add 30lbs or even going from 128lbs to 250lbs is not realistic if hitting the ball farher is the goal.

However, functional and specific strength can help, no doubt!

If you gave most people the choice of standing in a ring with two people, where they will be punched in the face ( as your example ) by either a 155lb guy or a 250lb. guy. Most people would sensibly take their chance with the 155lb guy.

In steps George St. Pierre and you made a big mistake!!!

A driver is very light and the ball has no idea how much you weigh when you swing into at various swing speeds!!!
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
Mike, would not the TGM and Moe Norman crowds (often interchanged) maintain that "hitters" can have success aligning the shaft with their trailing arm? Provided that the golfer was delivering the head to the club with the shaft at least in line with the head, and without prematurely releasing the club and getting satisfactory smash factors (1.45-1.5) are they at least not close to maximizing their efficiency, or are we now in territory that really belongs in your Q&A topic?

if the question is can you align the shaft with your leading arm with either hand - yes. you can do it in a multitude of ways that is fodder for another topic. but universally stated no good golfer aligned the shaft with the trail arm thru impact. ie - shaft in line with right forearm at impact for a right handed golfer - again you CAN use your right hand to line the shaft up with the left - and a myriad of other techniques, but there is a massive loss of power is when the shaft lines up with the right forearm.

I agree and disagree!

I don't think building functional muscle will ever hurt anyone. Some may argue increasing your bench press or adding even 30lbs of total muscle can litterally do NOTHING for how far you hit the ball and I agree.


I may help, it may hurt you, but specifically adding muscle in any manner is ineffiecent in that having to add 30lbs or even going from 128lbs to 250lbs is not realistic if hitting the ball farher is the goal.

However, functional and specific strength can help, no doubt!

If you gave most people the choice of standing in a ring with two people, where they will be punched in the face ( as your example ) by either a 155lb guy or a 250lb. guy. Most people would sensibly take their chance with the 155lb guy.

In steps George St. Pierre and you made a big mistake!!!

A driver is very light and the ball has no idea how much you weigh when you swing into at various swing speeds!!!

what i've really enjoyed about this thread is the lack of personal attacks and the abundance of explanation for the interest of common understanding. good stuff guys.

295yards - lemme add one thing to your post - there is no doubt that people can weight train incorrectly for themselves and ruin their golf game. i've seen it, and its sad cause all the person really wanted to do is improve their game and they got a major setback.

as far as adding muscle and it doing nothing for your game, i'll again stand by that it is a series of things that a golfer needs to do to improve. doing one piece like weight training CAN potentially make you BETTER at being a bad golfer. for ex: if you slice, you can really slice it further if your stronger - not a good outcome.
 

295yards

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2009
447
0
if the question is can you align the shaft with your leading arm with either hand - yes. you can do it in a multitude of ways that is fodder for another topic. but universally stated no good golfer aligned the shaft with the trail arm thru impact. ie - shaft in line with right forearm at impact for a right handed golfer - again you CAN use your right hand to line the shaft up with the left - and a myriad of other techniques, but there is a massive loss of power is when the shaft lines up with the right forearm.



what i've really enjoyed about this thread is the lack of personal attacks and the abundance of explanation for the interest of common understanding. good stuff guys.

295yards - lemme add one thing to your post - there is no doubt that people can weight train incorrectly for themselves and ruin their golf game. i've seen it, and its sad cause all the person really wanted to do is improve their game and they got a major setback.

as far as adding muscle and it doing nothing for your game, i'll again stand by that it is a series of things that a golfer needs to do to improve. doing one piece like weight training CAN potentially make you BETTER at being a bad golfer. for ex: if you slice, you can really slice it further if your stronger - not a good outcome.

Yeah, this forum is much better than others in regards to there not being so much personal attacks.

I personally think there is no need to be nasty, it's only opinions right?

Not sure if I truly eluded my whole opinion though.

I think training can be immensely beneficial for several reasons but to merely train blindly in hopes of more length from the tee is IMO foolish.

For me my training involves Trap bar deadlifts, hip, ham, calf & ilia psoas flexibilty, upper body coil over a stable lower body and speed chain drills.

I also focus on the amount of output I can generate doing jump squats, chin ups, dips and push ups.

BTW, I like how you debunk myths of guys like Jamie Sadlowski and Hank Khuene being weak and puny. Those guys are built to crush a ball, even CHIII is a bad example for weak. At 150lbs Chuckie would have no probs pushing 200lbs on the bench.
 

Manavs

Bodybuilding Golf Pro
Dec 19, 2008
448
1
Yeah, this forum is much better than others in regards to there not being so much personal attacks.

I personally think there is no need to be nasty, it's only opinions right?

Not sure if I truly eluded my whole opinion though.

I think training can be immensely beneficial for several reasons but to merely train blindly in hopes of more length from the tee is IMO foolish.

For me my training involves Trap bar deadlifts, hip, ham, calf & ilia psoas flexibilty, upper body coil over a stable lower body and speed chain drills.

I also focus on the amount of output I can generate doing jump squats, chin ups, dips and push ups.

BTW, I like how you debunk myths of guys like Jamie Sadlowski and Hank Khuene being weak and puny. Those guys are built to crush a ball, even CHIII is a bad example for weak. At 150lbs Chuckie would have no probs pushing 200lbs on the bench.


Good point. I see in the gym all the time people training with no rhyme or reason. and yet they don't ask people for help (for whatever reason)

i think the following is a good guide to get people started -

i'd classify the body symmetrically into 6 bodyparts and their subcomponents -

Arms (bicep,tricep),
Chest (Upper,Lower)
Shoulders (Front, Side, Rear)
Back (Lats, Middle, Lower)
Legs (Front Thighs, Hamstrings, glutes, Calves)
Abs (front, intercostals)

a functional beginner training routine would incorporate 2-3 exercises with 2-3 sets for a beginners. 20-40mins ish total workout hitting all 6 bodyparts. 2-3 days/week

advanced lifters (reads crazy ones), up to 5 exercises per bodypart, with 4-5 sets per exercise. 20-40 mins ish per body part 2-3 bodyparts per workout. 4-5 days/week hitting each bodypart 1-2 times a week.

possible spilts -

3 day split
chest/shoulders
back/arms
legs/abs

chest/back
shoulders/arms
legs/abs

4 day split
chest/front & side delts
back/rear delts
arms/abs
legs
 

295yards

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2009
447
0
:idhitit:
and yet they don't ask people for help (for whatever reason)

The same reason they don't ask for directions!

When I was younger I was with my girlgriend, a friend and his girlfriend and we were LOST.

After several attempts to finding a way home after a late night I figured I'd just pull into a gas station, ask an attendant and check out a map for some general direction.

Well, my friend calls me out.

I looked him in the eye, and said "I'm just trying to get home man and you already owe me over $10.00 in gas"

After that I had to keep my distance from his girlfriend. She was obseesed with me, like I was a hollywood hunk :mgw::idhitit:
 

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